the myth of modes

[Mushroo]

Here are two "C Major" compositions that create an interesting contrast. The Bach fugue has accidentals all over the place, while the Shostakovich fugue can be played using only the white keys of the piano (not a single sharp or flat).




Tom Brogan, what's happening in m. 20 and 32 of that Bach Prelude?

 

[okcrum]

I understand modes but I find them useless for making music. Why?

1. Using scales to play sounds like you're using scales to play, and that to me is zzzzzzzz time. The only one I find truly useful is the chromatic scale.

2. The chords tell you the important things you need to know.

Modal playing ruled in 1950s bebop and late 50s/early 60s "modern" jazz (think Kind Of Blue). In the late 60s, the more avant-garde jazz players started using scales for each change which weren't necessarily modal; they would sometimes use a different scale in the 1st octave of the chord than in the 2nd. Nonmodal pioneers like Ornette Coleman, Don Cherry, Eric Dolphy, and Sam Rivers finally got some props. You see this sometimes in modern classical music, as well (Schoenberg for example).

Things like the diminished, augmented, and reverse-diminished (half step/whole step instead of whole step/half step) scales don't fit neatly into the modal scheme of things either. They are useful when playing changes though.

 

[JimmyM]

A song can certainly modulate to other keys. A song "written in F" can still have a D7 or any other non-diatonic chord of F major. But there's only one dominant chord in the key of F: C7.

I felt your reply, while technically accurate, was a little too absolute for this crowd. Unfortunately, comments like yours get misinterpreted as "You can't ever use a D7 chord when you're in the key of F." Next thing you know, some kid who could have been a good music writer is writing bad ripoffs of Justin Bieber songs

 

[JimmyM]

Modal playing ruled in 1950s bebop and late 50s/early 60s "modern" jazz (think Kind Of Blue). In the late 60s, the more avant-garde jazz players started using scales for each change which weren't necessarily modal; they would sometimes use a different scale in the 1st octave of the chord than in the 2nd. Nonmodal pioneers like Ornette Coleman, Don Cherry, Eric Dolphy, and Sam Rivers finally got some props. You see this sometimes in modern classical music, as well (Schoenberg for example).

Things like the diminished, augmented, and reverse-diminished (half step/whole step instead of whole step/half step) scales don't fit neatly into the modal scheme of things either. They are useful when playing changes though.

Sure, folks have done it with success, sure. But you really have to be a great player to make it sound like you're not running scales. Way too ambitious a project for me

 

[Michael B]

Any specific suggestion for someone ignorant to jazz what to play to start appreciating the kinds of things you're discussing? Or just a good intro to playing it? I listen from time to time but where do you begin as a player ?

 

[okcrum]

Sure, folks have done it with success, sure. But you really have to be a great player to make it sound like you're not running scales. Way too ambitious a project for me

Oh man, you rarely play an entire scale; usually just a fragment or intervals on the way to the next change. The idea is to open up the voicings. It's easier than I thought at first - you just have to be crazy to start with.

 

[Mushroo]

A song "written in F" can still have a D7

D7 can only appear in one major key (G).

 

[Mushroo]

Diatonically, the key of G major only has seven possible chords.

That's exactly what "diatonic" means! But most music isn't purely diatonic, except maybe Shostakovich. I think you are confusing the terms "non-diatonic" and "modulation." A song can include any arbitrary number of accidentals and non-diatonic chords, without necessarily implying a modulation. Every single time you see a sharp or flat in the score, it's not always a key change. Many blues songs use 3 (or more) different dominant 7th chords without ever changing key.

 

[Michael B]

Wow. This was the most interesting and civil topic. What happened?

Any advice for a complete jazz beginner? What song to play etc?

(Or has everyone bailed?).

 

[Mushroo]

Of course a D7 chord may appear in other keys than G major, and it can be interesting to analyze that

I totally agree with you, HandsFree! Dominant 7th chords have been used in a lot of interesting ways by songwriters and composers, and it is a fun topic to study. I've posted some specific examples and hope others will feel free to to so, too. Thanks for starting the discussion!

 

[Mushroo]

Any advice for a complete jazz beginner? What song to play etc?

Get yourself physically in the same room as people who really know how to play jazz. Maybe as a listener and/or student at first, but hopefully soon too as a player at jams.

As far as songs, definitely get yourself a Real Book (unless you are an excellent "by ear" player) and maybe start working through some of the top standards on this list: Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals Contents

 

[Mushroo]

As far as songs, definitely get yourself a Real Book (unless you are an excellent "by ear" player) and maybe start working through some of the top standards on this list: Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals Contents

^--- Actually, Mushroo, that's good advice, but not GREAT advice.

GREAT advice would be, start with some jazz song that really moves you. Maybe it is something you hum to yourself when you're having a bad day, or a song your grandparents liked when you were a kid, or a song featured in your favorite movie, or you just think a particular jazz musician is "cool" and want to start out with one of his or her tunes.

If it is a song that you really, really love and know well (an "earworm" if you will) then you will be far ahead of the curve learning it.

 

[Michael B]

^--- Actually, Mushroo, that's good advice, but not GREAT advice.

GREAT advice would be, start with some jazz song that really moves you. Maybe it is something you hum to yourself when you're having a bad day, or a song your grandparents liked when you were a kid, or a song featured in your favorite movie, or you just think a particular jazz musician is "cool" and want to start out with one of his or her tunes.

If it is a song that you really, really love and know well (an "earworm" if you will) then you will be far ahead of the curve learning it.

Actually Mushroo, you're both right. But I am starting from near 0. So the list is a great starter. Just created a playlist and added a bunch from various artists. It's a fun start. Perhaps one will excite me.

 

[KickingBass]

Never could understand how to apply modes maybe I'm learning them too early in my learning experience :\ I just know my mentor really advocates them..

 

[hernameisrio]

This thread reminds me of when my fellow bassist friend was giving me a ride home and talking my ear off about all the modes and theory he was studying, while quizzing me on things that I honestly haven't had to think about or use since I was 10 years old trying to learn the Bach inventions. It was almost 1 in the morning and I'd just played a 4-hour gig after working at the fruit stand all day. He's a really great guy and he takes care of my cat when I'm out of town and if I ever had to get bailed out of jail out here he's probably one of the first few people I'd call, but seriously.... it was the one moment I've had in our friendship where I was suddenly seized by the urge to jump out of the moving car in the middle of the freeway.

 

[zontar]

The point is to learn the stuff so you know your instrument well enough to just play and not think about it...
this sounds like a contradiction, but it really isn't.

 

[swafran]

Going back to the original post, I read it as "as long as I know I'm in the overall key of G, when I get to that D7 chord, do I have to mentally switch to D mixolydian, why can't I just keep jamming in the overall key of G, keeping in mind to target the chord tones of D7 ?"

And I would say that is how a lot of people think about it. A lot of bass players learned on methods that teach this overall key approach (Improviser's Bass Method was the one I learned from and I recommend it). You learn your key positions up and down the neck, you notice chord fingerings fit over that,and away you go, and you're at home everywhere.

A lot of guitar teachers focus on the concept of modes, to teach the same thing. Learning the modes will teach you different inversions of your overall key fingerings too. But learning this way, instead of learning the fingering "key of G, 1st position" you learn the fingering "A aeolian".

I don't play classical, so I don't know about that. To play jazz, rock, funk, etc. thinking of overall keys makes the most sense to me, and from interviews, I would say to a lot of famous players too. But modes and overall key are just different ways of thinking about the same thing.

 

[JimmyM]

Any specific suggestion for someone ignorant to jazz what to play to start appreciating the kinds of things you're discussing? Or just a good intro to playing it? I listen from time to time but where do you begin as a player ?

At the beginning...easy old standards. "Autumn Leaves," "All The Things You Are," "All Of Me." Simple songs but have a world of lessons in them.

 

[HandsFree]

Slightly off topic, but to the OP, this part is false: "Of course a D7 chord may appear in other keys than G major..."

This has been discussed by others too by now in this thread, but since it is addressed to me:
A D7 chord can certainly appear in for instance the key of F major. It has a foreign note (F#), but that doesn't mean the tonal center has changed.
ex. this progression F-D7-Gm-C7-F.

In this section the music has not modulated. Google suggests the word for this is 'applied dominant', is that correct? (sorry, I'm not a native speaker)
The D7 functions as a temporary dominant to the Gm chord, without G minor becoming the new key.

 

[HandsFree]

I totally agree with you, HandsFree! Dominant 7th chords have been used in a lot of interesting ways by songwriters and composers, and it is a fun topic to study. I've posted some specific examples and hope others will feel free to to so, too.

Thanks , where are those specific examples?