the myth of modes

[Whousedtoplay]

And the notes of D mixolydian = A dorian and we go back to previous pages of this thread.

again play them how you want it wont change the modes implied by the tones present

That's why I've posted Gil Goldstein's page about "ending the phrase on the tonic of that mode."

The notes are the same but...
Let's take the C major scale and play a simple phrase that consists of the following notes - C D E G A C.
The phrase ends on C as the tonic for the Ionian mode.
Next time, let's play the same phrase but starting on D and ending on D - D E G A C D - while the background is the C major chord.

Similar notes but those two simple phrases sound differently in the background of C major.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Chord charts don't normally specify inversions - especially not in jazz and that's why people have so much fun improvising in jazz.

To my ears, there is an aural difference between those chord inversions.

So when mambo4 said he arranges the chord in 3rds, thats the "correct" way to think about it...

That's why I use the word, sonority, which includes all kinds of chords (non-tertian harmonic expressions.)

For most players soloing over a chart, something like "Cmaj7b5/Dsus4" can be a little confronting especially when its moving to the next chord very quickly where as d13 is pretty straight forward - use a D mixolydian.

I've already expressed my opinion why I would use the A Dorian mode.

I truly believe the message, "all notes are the same for all major modes" slightly distort the meaning of the modes.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

WOW 368 posts and still going. That has to be some kind of record for a mode string. I stayed out of this one till now.

You'all have fun and play nice.

 

[mambo4]

Threads about modes are kind of like modes:
infinite ways to describe the same thing.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

WOW 368 posts and still going. That has to be some kind of record for a mode string. I stayed out of this one till now.

You'all have fun and play nice.

I think those comments are popping up due to one very simple reason:
Way too many musicians refer to different modes as,
"The notes are the same; therefore, there is no difference, just ONE SCALE."

If we decide to follow their "opinion about the MODES as "just the same notes, one scale, who cares?", then we need to rename the most basic bass-line pattern as "5th - Root" instead of "Root - 5th".
THE NOTES ARE THE SAME.

 

[Frenchy-Lefty]

Agree, when I was kid I badly wanted to be able to play walking basses and improvise. Someone told me to learn the modes which I did, really well. Afterward I was like "uuuhhh that ain't much jazz sounding".
For a bassist all you need to know are root/third/fifth, all the passing tones concepts and chord subs. After that, learn some jazz licks and boom.
I guess modes are not useless but if you only play the mode notes in a jazz context, it ain't jazz.

 

[Ball_Buster]

Modes are a waste of time and merely a Jazz-College teaching tool. Most so-called musicians do NOT listen enough to learn a particular style -- especially Jazz. Or most likely, they started way too late. But, they think that there is a short-cut to becoming a pro-musician, so they trail off to music school to defer the inevitable: it will never happen.

There they are piled upon with the Chord/Scale & Play-this-Mode-Over-this-Chord teaching methods, and HUGE debt.

If you could not ALREADY succesfully play with most adult pro-musicians, when you were 15/16, do something else.

Really.

 

[INTP]

If you could not ALREADY succesfully play with most adult pro-musicians, when you were 15/16, do something else.

I acknowledge your right to your opinion, but I couldn't disagree more with this line of thinking.

Music is a beautiful and life-long journey, and I wouldn't discourage anyone from pursuing it in whatever form they enjoy.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Modes are a waste of time and merely a Jazz-College teaching tool. Most so-called musicians do NOT listen enough to learn a particular style -- especially Jazz. Or most likely, they started way too late. But, they think that there is a short-cut to becoming a pro-musician, so they trail off to music school to defer the inevitable: it will never happen.

There they are piled upon with the Chord/Scale & Play-this-Mode-Over-this-Chord teaching methods, and HUGE debt.

If you could not ALREADY succesfully play with most adult pro-musicians, when you were 15/16, do something else.

Really.

Dear, Ball_Buster,

Is your name Jeff Berlin?

 

[Lanky Tunes]

Agree, when I was kid I badly wanted to be able to play walking basses and improvise. Someone told me to learn the modes which I did, really well. Afterward I was like "uuuhhh that ain't much jazz sounding".

I can that the diatonic rut. Of course there are way around it, but I prefer something along the lines of your recommendation. I'd say learn the licks first though. You need to have a guide to what solid lines look/sound like. Sadly so much of the bass is buried in the mix of those old records.

For a bassist all you need to know are root/third/fifth, all the passing tones concepts and chord subs. After that, learn some jazz licks and boom.
I guess modes are not useless but if you only play the mode notes in a jazz context, it ain't jazz.

Things like enclosures and chromatics are also great for funk and early Motown type sounds.

 

[John Goldsby]

I thought about you TB-ers when I got this chart. I've been rehearsing and recording with Richie Beirach all week, and we're playing his "hit" tune "Pendulum" as an encore on the concerts we're doing this weekend. This page is part of the solo section. I know that several folks might object to naming a Bbmin11 (or Bbmin7(11) ) a Bbsus (Dorian), but that's the way Richie (and arranger Rich DeRosa) conceived the solo section. Basically, when he hits any of these 8-bar sections, it's very obvious what the sound is . . . there are some notes that are defining notes in the chord/scale, other notes that are complementary, and other notes that are outside the chord/scale. All notes are usable in juxtaposition to the defining notes of the chord/scale.

Enjoy!

 

[John Goldsby]

IMHO, there is an Aural difference between Bbm7(11) and Bbsus7.

Totally right your are about the aural difference between Bbmin7(11) and Bbsus7. . . I'm just pointing out that when I see Bbmin7(11) for 8 bars, I would think Dorian. What I encountered on this chart was unusual in that it had "sus" chords as a blanket category for almost everything, and then the name of the mode that we are blowing on.

The chord symbols used are rather nebulous, but by naming the mode as the starting point, then everything is clear.

 

[John Goldsby]

The chart is written in the key of F# minor because that's where the melody begins (like on the video you posted). Although the tune is in F# minor-ish on the melody, the blowing section, at least for the arrangement we're playing, moves through pedal tones on all 12 notes. Each 8 bars, the pedal tone changes, and the mode changes. Once that section begins, the key signature has no bearing on anything.

 

[Febs]

Totally right your are about the aural difference between Bbmin7(11) and Bbsus7. . . I'm just pointing out that when I see Bbmin7(11) for 8 bars, I would think Dorian. What I encountered on this chart was unusual in that it had "sus" chords as a blanket category for almost everything, and then the name of the mode that we are blowing on.

The chord symbols used are rather nebulous, but by naming the mode as the starting point, then everything is clear.

Thanks for sharing that chart. I've never seen a chart notated that way, but I agree with you that it does clearly communicate the sound that the composer wants. Very cool.

 

[Lownote38]

Dear, Ball_Buster,

Is your name Jeff Berlin?

Jeff would say the opposite of what Ball_Buster did.

 

[Sav'nBass]

This is a very interesting thread... It's funny because I see some things that I am just now discovering.. some on my own... like light bulb moments..

I have actually been able to pick out quite a bit in here.. I bought the Bass Grimoire about 10 years ago and I tried to learn modes but at the time it made no sense to me.. Then I began to look at modes as extensions of the major scale... and for me they now make more sense and I find myself being able to use them .. especially when soloing.. I am finding all this just so fascinating to me because for a long time I just learned songs and now diving into the nuts and bolts is like a new discovery every day...

 

[Sav'nBass]

Agree, when I was kid I badly wanted to be able to play walking basses and improvise. Someone told me to learn the modes which I did, really well. Afterward I was like "uuuhhh that ain't much jazz sounding".
For a bassist all you need to know are root/third/fifth, all the passing tones concepts and chord subs. After that, learn some jazz licks and boom.
I guess modes are not useless but if you only play the mode notes in a jazz context, it ain't jazz.

I think that one way the modes will help is that they will extend the scale for you ... Using modes is a good way to envision the entire scale across the fretboard at a glance.. at least for me..

I acknowledge your right to your opinion, but I couldn't disagree more with this line of thinking.
Music is a beautiful and life-long journey, and I wouldn't discourage anyone from pursuing it in whatever form they enjoy.

Exactly! The fact that there is redundancy (as in Major scale=Ionian Mode, Natural Minor=Aeolian etc..) for me anyway only serves to reinforce things.. I came at this whole study thing a little late in life... so I have a lot of slaughtered brain cells from my wild and reckless youth... but for me it is all good and I find myself unconsciously using what I am learning on a regular basis. I don't think that learning anythng about music is a waste of time ... Maybe it is because I wastyed so much time when I was younger ... I find that I am learning things that some folks learned in their first 5 years ... like in a natural mmMmmminor scale the chordal structure is mDMmmMM (as opposed to MmmMMmD) ... sounds like a big Duuuhhh to some of you guys.. but I never knew that till relatively recently.. because all I really knew was the major scale and all I did was practice songs... It is all good.. and at this point I am just glad that I can still do it reasonably well... and see ongoing improvement.

 

[DocBop]

Guitar players and their attitude the answer to all questions is some scale, because they just convert scales to "dots on a grid" and feel they are done. Modes are really about harmony, the chords that come from the harmonized modes. You need to understand the harmony of a mode to know what notes to use to imply the sound of the mode.

When working with modes think of the harmony first, then the chord tones to know what notes to emphasize in the scale.

 

[Don Kasper]

When working with modes think of the harmony first, then the chord tones to know what notes to emphasize in the scale.

Amen, Brother. This (vertical aspect) is often overlooked in these Modal (horizontal aspect) discussions.
Thanks.

 

[John Goldsby]

Guitar players and their attitude the answer to all questions is some scale, because they just convert scales to "dots on a grid" and feel they are done.

Agreed ... I think guitar players (and bassists) also often convert chords to "dots on the grid."