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Double Bass The New Standard

#22
Jazz music has a long history of playing 'pop' music. The classic Miles and 'Trane groups played the heck out of them, especially the show tunes- 'If I Were a Bell', 'My Favorite Things', etc...

I see no reason why we shouldn't be playing them today. I don't, however, feel that if an audience member walks up to the bandstand and requests a song that we don't know that we should half-a## our way through it.

That said, there's a guitar player that I work with that loves to play the afore-mentioned 'Isn't She Lovely' and the venue demographics where we usually play fit that genre. I quote the harmonica solo on the bridge... <I adore 'Songs in the Key of Life'; if my desert island list was expanded to 10 albums it would make the cut>

How 'bout Esperanza's 'Precious'? That's a pop song if I've ever heard one. <I'm about halfway through a leadsheet transcription for one of my college combos, it's a great song>

+1 on Herbie's 'New Standard'. In addition to the songs already mentioned, he covers Prince (Thieves in the Temple) and Peter Gabriel (Mercy Street). Plus, Dave Holland- 'nuf said, probably should be +>1.
 
#23
I was playing a piano duo a few years back in a club in an upper class area. This is a place frequented by young professionals, athletes, their trophy wives and young women hoping to become trophy wives.

This particular night was slow, abnormally quiet and the pianist was deep into a solo 'eyes closed' meditation of Time Remembered.

I watched as a young blonde wearing a white blouse stumbled to the piano and put her hands flat on the bench. Bent over with her ample womanhood exposed :hyper:, she blurted out, "CAN YOU PLAY THE PIANO MAN!"

The pianist stopped playing, looked directly at her boobs and simply said, "NO!" Turning to me he said, "she interrupted my favorite tune. Let's take a break."
Just as deadpan as that. :D
 
#24
Black Hole Sun is one that's kind of become an unfortunate casualty of the "new standard" phenomenon. Soundgarden's original was brilliant, and it's a great tune. Then it started getting covered by everyone, including jazzholes like myself, and now it's pretty predictable to hear it on bandstands everywhere. Paul Anka covered it, for chrissake.
 
#25
Marcus Johnson said:
Black Hole Sun is one that's kind of become an unfortunate casualty of the "new standard" phenomenon. Soundgarden's original was brilliant, and it's a great tune. Then it started getting covered by everyone, including jazzholes like myself, and now it's pretty predictable to hear it on bandstands everywhere. Paul Anka covered it, for chrissake.
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Agreed. When I saw that tune made it on Mehldau's live thing recently I was disappointed. The original is so raw. That wall of guitars and rawness of Chris Cornell's voice just gets lost in a piano trio. Sounds like muzak. Even when the Bad Plus does stuff like that it ends up sound kitchy to me. They get a pretty raw sound for a piano trio but part of the character of those tunes for me is in the character of the voice that's singing. A piano cannot sound like Kurt.

It's interesting though. It is true that Miles and Coltrane and others took Broadway tunes and what not and jazzified them. I'd say though that stylistically they weren't as different as someone taking a Soundgarden or Nirvana tune and making a jazz version.
 
#26
chicagodoubler said:
I've done this for years but only in the right setting. On a society gig you may be able to get away with some Beatles and Stevie Wonder ala Isn't She Lovely. Please remember that "Shadow of your Smile" is just barely older than a lot of the repertoire the jazzholes call into question. A good tune is a good tune. Period. Play "Blackhole Sun" on a bar gig and see how the girls all of a sudden start paying attention...:smug:

We can also fall into the trapping of trying to make a tune that isn't as good more relevant by cramming "modern" harmony into it. There is a way in which these over-arranged versions of "newer" tunes can sound convoluted and overwrought and leave a bad taste in EVERYONE'S mouth.

The only real way to know is to try them. Miles got crap for playing pop tunes. For most of the history of "jazz," pop tunes were all we played on the majority of our gigs.

I actually carry a "pop book" in the car just in case the client asks for us to "pick it up." Wedding planners and event coordinators love hiring bands that are flexible enough to whisper behind cocktail hour and then pack the floor once the bar opens up. My groups do that all the time. Ca-ching.
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Here is my obligatory anti-New Standar response! I agree with the above - there is HUGE difference between having it make sense in a working context and presenting as your art to a wider public.
If you are on a society gig you need to do the job.

I'd go as far as saying that getting away from old and new pop tunes is the best plan if you want to further your study of jazz.
The risk of exhausting all the great tunes by great jazz composers is pretty slim.
If you are arranging Nivana songs before you have looked into Herbie Nichols book chances are you are not very serious about your music.

What is cute at a dorm party and what makes sense as a serious artist are two separate things.
 
#30
No dogma here. If I like a tune, I'll play it, and hopefully put a little bit of a different spin on it that makes it worth translating into an instrumental version. Usually most of the better players I play with (the ones with open minds and ears) are able to do that on the bandstand. If somebody else I'm playing with calls a "new standard" I'll do my best to make it sound good. I like the challenge, and I also like the variety.

Tunes that others have called on gigs recently that have been fun in an instrumental setting and that have been a nice break from a whole set of standards:

Since I've Been Lovin' You (Zeppelin)
Free Fallin' (Tom Petty)
I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry (Hank Williams)



PS - Thanks, Clink! I'm ignorant and never knew that wasn't a "real" standard. :ninja:
 
#31
I have to argue with the idea that Miles "arranged" the show tunes that blew up his album sales. In many cases the head he plays is verbatim off the leadsheet from the show, with bass in 2, et al. He was playing popular tunes because they were popular and (gasp) maybe he cared about record sales?

Now, Ahmad Jamal for me was heads above on this bit. Many of the tunes on Live at the Pershing would be considered 'new standards" back then. He was taking these incredibly popular tunes and reworking them in brilliant ways, often leaving out the most memorable chunk of the melody because everyone already knew what the tune was. Some people thought/ still think his versions are cheesy. Everyone is welcome to their opinions. I think his work is brilliant and a great example of how to be popular yet still an "artist."

regarding specific tune choice, again, it depends. I do a rowdy bar gig here where we do Black Hole Sun, Crazy, Too High, Misty Mountain Hop (as a cha cha,) Donny Hathaway's "What's Going on," etc... because it gets money in the tip jar and breaks up a long night for a very drunk and loud crowd. on more refined gigs you're lucky to sneak in I'm an Old Cowhand or How Sweet it Is.

btw Marcus, I didn't call you a jazzhole, but a lot of people love Paul Anka, and Black Hole Sun.

Finally, if you hate a tune so much and it gets requested, learn another song by the same artist!!! "sorry, we don't know Piano Man. how about New York State of Mind?" Hate Moondance so much? Crazy Love ain't that bad. You still get a tip, get to avoid playing a tune you dislike, and don't come off as too good for your audience, imho.
 
#36
NorthArchRising said:
'Knives Out' by Radiohead seems to come up a lot these days, Brad Mehldau does some pretty great 'new' standards without going down that 'elevator' music path
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I strongly disagree with both seniments. Mehldau has had clear comercial success but there are plenty of serious players, listeners and critics who don't like the what he has done.

It is a lot like making the choice to do avant garde music: Expect it to shut as many doors as it opens.

Another idea I'd put out there is that the early jazz musicians had far less "jazz compositions" to choose from.
I think if you are more compelled to learn a rock tune than great jazz composition nothing is stopping you from starting a rock band.
Just because you love a song doesn't mean you have to play it - listen to it on the way to the gig and then get on with your own music!
 
#37
damonsmith said:
If you are arranging Nivana songs before you have looked into Herbie Nichols book chances are you are not very serious about your music.

What is cute at a dorm party and what makes sense as a serious artist are two separate things.
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I disagree with this.
I think in order to be a complete musician you need to play the music you love and make it your own. I understand that studying masters is vital, but as a working musician I can't get away with playing "serious" music all the time. As someone who plays at house parties and dorm parties I don't see how connecting with my fellow human beings through music makes me less of an artist. A serious musician lives through their music.
When I started this thread I wanted to find out what modern pop songs my fellow musicians played to connect to their audience and their own life, and what ideas they had for interpreting them. If you want to raise questions about what makes a serious artist so serious, I don't think this is the place.
 
#38
Calling modern pop songs "New Standards" imply the material is being included in the jazz canon, this is where it is problem for me.

jolkszost said:
As someone who plays at house parties and dorm parties I don't see how connecting with my fellow human beings through music makes me less of an artist.
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I don't think it does, but that is going to depend on whether or not you move it outside of that context, and how you do it. I will say I don't think it ever productive for jazz as a music.
 
#40
damonsmith said:
I strongly disagree with both seniments. Mehldau has had clear comercial success but there are plenty of serious players, listeners and critics who don't like the what he has done.

It is a lot like making the choice to do avant garde music: Expect it to shut as many doors as it opens.

Another idea I'd put out there is that the early jazz musicians had far less "jazz compositions" to choose from.
I think if you are more compelled to learn a rock tune than great jazz composition nothing is stopping you from starting a rock band.
Just because you love a song doesn't mean you have to play it - listen to it on the way to the gig and then get on with your own music!
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thats your opinion but i have to disagree,

the fact you believe a piece of music to be a 'rock' tune and another a 'jazz' tune is a bit strange considering show tunes aren't 'jazz' tunes but contrane and miles etc rearranged a re harmonized pieces so i can't see where your coming from, have you ever played knives out? its a great piece to play with the right arrangement and theres nothing 'rock' about it when played with the correct instrumentation and vision

i guess collaborating with pat metheny is because he's viewed with such distain by 'serous players' i guess we should all play autumn leaves for another 60 years and if it ain't hard bop then we'll turn our backs, stick our noses in the air and leave
 

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