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Double Bass The New Standard

#41
they're all pop tunes. the question of "artistry" is subjective at best, depending upon the listener as well as the performer. when we feel a song is "beneath" us we do a disservice to the noble, hardworking wo(men) who wrote these songs. we also do a disservice to our trade and our listener by feeling that our given service is above the duty of making people happy.

As I've said before, what is the name of our industry?

THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.

not the self indulgence industry.

there's no money or dignity in that trade.

Play whatever you will, and play whatever your audience demands of you in any given setting, and the question of fiscal relevance rapidly disappears. Tada!:eyebrow:
 
#43
[moderator hat]
Let's all take a moment to remember what opinions are like, and who has them, and that everybody else's smells worse than our own. I am reminded of George Carlin's classic line about driving: "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

It's fine to disagree in these threads, and it's fine to show disdain for the subject matter, as long as it's all done respectfully. But the subject is certainly worthy of discussion regardless of how many people weigh in/agree with either "side", or how vehemently they do so.
[/moderator hat]


Personally, whenever I find I can't make something sound good, I feel that at least a part of the blame for that falls on me as a player no matter how humble the source material.
 
#45
Chris Fitzgerald said:
Personally, whenever I find I can't make something sound good, I feel that at least a part of the blame for that falls on me as a player no matter how humble the source material.
Click to expand...

+1. We recently came to as close of a consensus as we can 'round these parts in the thread about the young bass player with the slightly older piano guy that there are "no small tunes, just small players". By that it is indeed possible to make almost any tune rip. Listen to Jean Michel Pilc. He takes the most standard standards and takes them to far different places.

That said I do feel that there is a motivation piece. Are we doing a bar gig and someone just slipped us a $20 to make his anniversary special? Are we playing a loft concert? Are we trying to sell a few records because the mortgage is getting a little hard to afford? Are we at some big sit down concert hall?

This is where I start to question choices based on my own taste. Seeing Wonderwall or Smells Like Nirvana on a record by a piano trio doesn't make me want to buy the record. Quite the contrary but ultimately we vote with our $. If I buy the record because there is a killing version of I'll be Seeing You and someone else buys it because of Black Hole Sun then that artist has sold twice the records. Is that selling out? Who knows and who cares? One man's trash is another man's treasure.

We can all make our own decisions as players and consumers and that's where it ends.
 
#46
fingers said:
+1. We recently came to as close of a consensus as we can 'round these parts in the thread about the young bass player with the slightly older piano guy that there are "no small tunes, just small players". By that it is indeed possible to make almost any tune rip. Listen to Jean Michel Pilc. He takes the most standard standards and takes them to far different places.
Click to expand...

Agreed. And you know I know what you're talking about. Pilc is the perfect example to me of a force of personality/musicality so strong that any material can be channelled through his lens and come out interesting and different just about every time.

That said I do feel that there is a motivation piece. Are we doing a bar gig and someone just slipped us a $20 to make his anniversary special?
Click to expand...

Not that I love this last bit, but even there, I think it all applies. I have a steady club date with great players and a great young singer where the pay is good, the people are nice, but we are basically ambience to the club. When we get requests like this, we do our best to play them while still "weirding them out" sufficiently to amuse ourselves creatively while still giving the people what they requested. When we manage to do it, it's always a win-win, and we at the very least get a laugh out of it.
 
#49
chicagodoubler said:
As I've said before, what is the name of our industry?

THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.

not the self indulgence industry.
Click to expand...

I'll concede that even improvised music deals with a public, and giving that public something they accept is part of taking the music out of your bedroom. Kowtowing to your audience and doing whatever bring money in can certainly make you a reasonable living, but I doubt that is what you or anyone else picked up the instrument for in the first place.
I am happy to report that there are many different audieces with many different demands and some international audiences STILL demand artistic integrity.


NorthArchRising said:
i guess we should all play autumn leaves for another 60 years and if it ain't hard bop then we'll turn our backs, stick our noses in the air and leave
Click to expand...

Honestly, I think we should all ultimately play our own music, but playing the old standards can be part of a study of the jazz tradition that can teach some you really valuable things about music. You will certainly learn something from arranging a cocktail version of a cute pop song but it is hardly a good use of study time.

In person, this discussion ends quicker: few of us serious players could sit across the table from one another look the other person in the eye and make a case for learning a Radiohead song over a great composition by a great jazz composer (meaning Mingus, Ellington, Herbie Nichols, Monk, etc.). All of my colleagues who indulge have wilted in that situation.
 
#50
damonsmith said:
In person, this discussion ends quicker: few of us serious players could sit across the table from one another look the other person in the eye and make a case for learning a Radiohead song over a great composition by a great jazz composer (meaning Mingus, Ellington, Herbie Nichols, Monk, etc.). All of my colleagues who indulge have wilted in that situation.
Click to expand...
Can't argue with this...

but... playing something silly (like Led Zep's Black Dog) is awful fun! :bassist: You feel naughty like you're doing something fun that you're not supposed to. We don't need to always take it so dead-seriously. I can only handle so much Charlie Parker before I start going a little nutso.
 
#51
I like to think of music as a conversation, not a lecture. There is a time and a place for heaviness, and a time and a place for joviality. If your audience wants to have fun, be fun. If they want to sit and listen, play Shade of Jade. On the best gigs, we can run the whole gamut. Jazz is about freedom, and the freedom (and the obligation) to play whatever we want to on whatever harmonic structure we wish is part of what makes this art so beautiful.

Can we please stop limiting our art?

Oh and regarding "cowtowing" as damon puts it so condescendingly, some of us got into this to make people happy. We're basically an extension of the food and beverage program in most venues, and should treat our guests with the same consideration, kindness, and variety of choices as our brother and sister industry folks deliver. With a smile. MHO.
 
#52
Cowtowing? Players are towing cows for their audiences? Are you serious?

Oh, wait: "kow-towing", something the Chinese emperor used to expect you to do. Now I get it. It's another rhetorical method for Damon Smith to cast withering scorn upon any sort of music that doesn't meet his high artistic standards (i.e., it's not "free", made by some of the "free"-playing folks he likes to listen to; it's not real jazz; it's not Bach; it's got a "groove"; etc.)

Put me down with the folks who think a talented, skilled musician of worth could play the phonebook and make it interesting (but that same musician is probably better off with a great song or other type of composition.) That's what I believe. I've heard it happen many times (well, with the metaphorical phonebook, anyway.) I'm not going to have rigid pre-conceived ideas about what's good and what's not good based on what sort of category I think it falls in or comes from. That's stamping out your thinking with a cookie-cutter and that's a pretty poor way of thinking. It's called "ideology".

Keep your ears always open -- at least for a few bars. Life is short and who wants to listen to dreck, anyway? Make your own decisions, play what you want, but remember: wherever there's "jazz", the jazz police aren't far behind. And there are a lot of them.
 
#53
damonsmith said:
I'll concede that even improvised music deals with a public, and giving that public something they accept is part of taking the music out of your bedroom. Cowtowing to your audience and doing whatever bring money in can certainly make you a reasonable living, but I doubt that is what you or anyone else picked up the instrument for in the first place.
I am happy to report that there are many different audieces with many different demands and some international audiences STILL demand artistic integrity.




Honestly, I think we should all ultimately play our own music, but playing the old standards can be part of a study of the jazz tradition that can teach some you really valuable things about music. You will certainly learn something from arranging a cocktail version of a cute pop song but it is hardly a good use of study time.

In person, this discussion ends quicker: few of us serious players could sit across the table from one another look the other person in the eye and make a case for learning a Radiohead song over a great composition by a great jazz composer (meaning Mingus, Ellington, Herbie Nichols, Monk, etc.). All of my colleagues who indulge have wilted in that situation.
Click to expand...

i do agree with you as time is precious and trust me i've spent longer than i care to think about running standards but at the end of the day its what you like personally, we'll just have to disagree on whats deemed valid but thats good because its what makes us all make and play different music
 
#54
Damon Rondeau said:
Cowtowing? Players are towing cows for their audiences? Are you serious?

Oh, wait: "kow-towing", something the Chinese emperor used to expect you to do. Now I get it. It's another rhetorical method for Damon Smith to cast withering scorn upon any sort of music that doesn't meet his high artistic standards (i.e., it's not "free", made by some of the "free"-playing folks he likes to listen to; it's not real jazz; it's not Bach; it's got a "groove"; etc.)

Put me down with the folks who think a talented, skilled musician of worth could play the phonebook and make it interesting (but that same musician is probably better off with a great song or other type of composition.) That's what I believe. I've heard it happen many times (well, with the metaphorical phonebook, anyway.) I'm not going to have rigid pre-conceived ideas about what's good and what's not good based on what sort of category I think it falls in or comes from. That's stamping out your thinking with a cookie-cutter and that's a pretty poor way of thinking. It's called "ideology".

Keep your ears always open -- at least for a few bars. Life is short and who wants to listen to dreck, anyway? Make your own decisions, play what you want, but remember: wherever there's "jazz", the jazz police aren't far behind. And there are a lot of them.
Click to expand...

i'm liking you ;) good post
 
#55
What a slippery slope. I think you gotta balance your own musical ethics and tastes with your particular needs. I don't often hear very artistic or challenging versions of pop songs played in a jazz context but I am also not out there looking for them. I'm sure that some players manage to do great things with pop material but I admit that I tend to like my pop music to remain pop music where it often sounds best. Radiohead is the go-to band of the moment, much thanks to Mehldau. I can "get a kick" out of listening to that band play but I still think Radioheads versions are more artistic and creative. That said, I almost feel the same way about regular jazz standards at this point. Are you going to play me a more creative Blue Trane than the famous version by
Coltrane? I felt very challenged by this thought early on. In my University everyone sounded like they were playing horribly watered down versions of great tunes and that felt very unsatisfying. So I think this dilemma about "covering" goes deeper than just whether or not to play Moondance.
 
#56
I think one thing most of us will agree on is that the joke is stale and every bit as tired as "more cowbell" and was never nearly as funny as Walken's (happy birthday to him, today!) SNL skit in the first place. The punch line is the same no matter what tune you choose.
So please, no more "ironic" versions.

If you REALLY want to play something, play it. You don't need anyone's permission - especially mine.
 
#57
damonsmith said:
I think one thing most of us will agree on is that the joke is stale and every bit as tired as "more cowbell" and was never nearly as funny as Walken's (happy birthday to him, today!) SNL skit in the first place. The punch line is the same no matter what tune you choose.
So please, no more "ironic" versions.
Click to expand...

Forgive me for not paying total attention to the whole thread, but I'm not sure what cowbell-esque tired joke you're referring to.

damonsmith said:
If you REALLY want to play something, play it. You don't need anyone's permission
Click to expand...

This I agree with completely, CAPs included, in all circumstances, always.
 

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