The Old Ironing Board Trick

[Michael Schreiber]

Gravity doesn't effect the neck, but rather how the strings hang. And yes, it can have a minor effect. It's not to say the instrument can't be laid flat to do certain work, but some measurement are best made in playing position. This is especially true for those of us that like low action.

And especially for those who cannot adjust.
Seriously, I adjust the action, test it, re-adjust it. What's the problem?
Wouldn't be faster if I did it in a different position, since I need to feel if it feels right, right?
What am I missing?

 

[guy n. cognito]

And especially for those who cannot adjust.
Seriously, I adjust the action, test it, re-adjust it. What's the problem?
Wouldn't be faster if I did it in a different position, since I need to feel if it feels right, right?
What am I missing?

Every professional tech I've used in Nashville to date measures relief in playing position. I guess I could assume that they "cannot adjust", but I'll bet that's not it....

 

[KillerEddie]

Which ironing board is best for changing Flatwound Strings?

Blue ones. Or for real tone perfection find a tort ironing board

 

[J-Bassomatic]

Gravity doesn't effect the neck, but rather how the strings hang. And yes, it can have a minor effect. It's not to say the instrument can't be laid flat to do certain work, but some measurement are best made in playing position. This is especially true for those of us that like low action.

That is what I was getting at, gravity would have a 'telephone pole sag' effect and if the difference was enough to matter I would see light at the 12th fret, which I do not. I know here that any theoretical possibility is likely to generate 10 pages of controversy, but if the 'sag' is not visible then I shall disregard the gravity theorists warnings.
EDIT: And for another 10 pages of controversy gravity DOES affect the neck, gravity affects everything.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Every professional tech I've used in Nashville to date measures relief in playing position. I guess I could assume that they "cannot adjust", but I'll bet that's not it....

Come on, we're talking about bassists, not techs.
I do not know any bassist that'd adjust the action because some numbers say. I only now player who adjust the action because it does not feel right.

Also, if gravity had such a strong effect on strings under tension, why would gravity have that effect not in the playing position, as well? Just wondering. Not saying your techs wouldn't know how to do their job.

 

[J-Bassomatic]

Come on, we're talking about bassists, not techs.
I do not know any bassist that'd adjust the action because some numbers say. I only now player who adjust the action because it does not feel right.

Also, if gravity had such a strong effect on strings under tension, why would gravity have that effect not in the playing position, as well? Just wondering. Not saying your techs wouldn't know how to do their job.

In playing position your strings are being pulled downward to the floor.
I hear that while they are killing time between gravity waves, technicians at the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-wave Observatory (LIGO) are measuring the effects of gravity on bass strings

 

[guy n. cognito]

Come on, we're talking about bassists, not techs.
I do not know any bassist that'd adjust the action because some numbers say. I only now player who adjust the action because it does not feel right.

Also, if gravity had such a strong effect on strings under tension, why would gravity have that effect not in the playing position, as well? Just wondering. Not saying your techs wouldn't know how to do their job.

I don't know about you, but I'm talking about people that know how to do the job right...

Gravity does have an effect, in both positions. That's my whole point, actually. And, funny enough, if your adjusting, playing, adjusting,playing....then you are actually doing your "measuring" in the playing position.

Knowing the measurements you prefer gives you a good starting point, or a reference to give to a tech if you don't do your own work. You dont HAVE to measure, but it sure can be helpful.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

then you are actually doing your "measuring" in the playing position.

Yes, if you had mentioned that means of measurement, in the first place, I'd 100% agreed with you.

If I were concerned about gravity, and would like to adjust the action by numbers, I'd at least put the guitar in a vertical position, like on a guitar stand. Again: If I were concerned about that.

And you're right, might be a good idea to know the action in mm, when having to have it adjusted by someone else.

 

[J-Bassomatic]

I don't know about you, but I'm talking about people that know how to do the job right...

Gravity does have an effect, in both positions. That's my whole point, actually. And, funny enough, if your adjusting, playing, adjusting,playing....then you are actually doing your "measuring" in the playing position.

Knowing the measurements you prefer gives you a good starting point, or a reference to give to a tech if you don't do your own work. You dont HAVE to measure, but it sure can be helpful.

I'm with you on the Nashville thing, some of those players have pretty spooky ears down there. If they say they have to take gravity into account, I won't argue.

 

[Tony In Philly]

I don't know if I'd want to iron any of my nice, clean shirts on my ironing board after having one of my filthy, bar microbe contaminated basses lying on it.

 

[jmlee]

Alright...let's get the ol' physicist's hat on and consider a couple of things. The total string tension acting to bow the neck of a bass is somewhere around 160 lbs. (I'll stick with English units since that's what I found on the D'Addario XL tension chart here this morning.) The bass body is typically supported by two strap attachments when in playing position, supporting say 6 lbs of wood and electronics. The bending stiffness of the body in this configuration is very high due to the very high moment of inertia: higher than it is when lying on the ironing board. [Direction of bending is bout-to-bout in playing position but through the body thickness when lying down.] However, the force is so low and the moment of inertia so high that it's hard to imagine much alteration in body bending due to changing positions. If we imagine a bolt-on neck, it's being bent by 160 lbs of tension exerted over about 2.5-3 ft of distance between bolts and tuners (this regardless of position: playing vs ironing board). For the sake of argument, let's imagine that the bass neck with tuners weighs another 6 lbs. The centre of mass of the neck will be perhaps 1.5 ft from the attachment bolts, and the bending moment due to gravitation acting on that mass will act through the centre of mass. That's a moment of 9 ft-lbs bending the neck backwards with the instrument lying down and the neck unsupported (worst case scenario). In playing position that same moment acts, but this time bending the neck toward the feet of the player: 9 ft-lbs relieved toward the back of the neck and 9 ft-lbs added toward the player's feet. This compares with perhaps 160 lbs x 3 ft = 480 ft-lbs due to string tension which is constantly bending the neck in the fingerboard position. So...is there a gravitational effect? Maybe, but if so it's very small. In terms of setting action, about 9/480 which is about 2%. In this physicist's view, the ironing board is just fine for setting action.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

With Victorian flower patterns on the cover....obviously....

Victorian patterns only work for Kinks cover bands.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Alright...let's get the ol' physicist's hat on and consider a couple of things. The total string tension acting to bow the neck of a bass is somewhere around 160 lbs. (I'll stick with English units since that's what I found on the D'Addario XL tension chart here this morning.) The bass body is typically supported by two strap attachments when in playing position, supporting say 6 lbs of wood and electronics. The bending stiffness of the body in this configuration is very high due to the very high moment of inertia: higher than it is when lying on the ironing board. [Direction of bending is bout-to-bout in playing position but through the body thickness when lying down.] However, the force is so low and the moment of inertia so high that it's hard to imagine much alteration in body bending due to changing positions. If we imaging a bolt-on neck, it's being bent by 160 lbs of tension exerted over about 2.5-3 ft of distance between bolts and tuners (this regardless of position: playing vs ironing board). For the sake of argument, let's imagine that the bass neck with tuners weighs another 6 lbs. The centre of mass of the neck will be perhaps 1.5 ft from the attachment bolts, and the bending moment due to gravitation acting on that mass will act through the centre of mass. That's a moment of 9 ft-lbs bending the neck backwards with the instrument lying down and the neck unsupported (worst case scenario). In playing position that same moment acts, but this time bending the neck toward the feet of the player: 9 ft-lbs relieved toward the back of the neck and 9 ft-lbs added toward the player's feet. This compares with perhaps 160 lbs x 3 ft = 480 ft-lbs due to string tension which is constantly bending the neck in the fingerboard position. So...is there a gravitational effect? Maybe, but if so it's very small. In terms of setting action, about 9/480 which is about 2%. In this physicist's view, the ironing board is just fine for setting action.

It's not really confirmed until Brian Cox posts, but he'll be on talksynth.com.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I don't know if I'd want to iron any of my nice, clean shirts on my ironing board after having one of my filthy, bar microbial contaminated basses lying on it.

I see a gap in the market for a talk bass branded ironing board cover for instrument work.

The other trick is that an ironing board also makes a great keyboard stand. If you have a really powerful steam iron, also take that to your gig if you don't have a smoke machine.

 

[Fat Freddy]

Alright...let's get the ol' physicist's hat on and consider a couple of things. The total string tension acting to bow the neck of a bass is somewhere around 160 lbs. (I'll stick with English units since that's what I found on the D'Addario XL tension chart here this morning.) The bass body is typically supported by two strap attachments when in playing position, supporting say 6 lbs of wood and electronics. The bending stiffness of the body in this configuration is very high due to the very high moment of inertia: higher than it is when lying on the ironing board. [Direction of bending is bout-to-bout in playing position but through the body thickness when lying down.] However, the force is so low and the moment of inertia so high that it's hard to imagine much alteration in body bending due to changing positions. If we imaging a bolt-on neck, it's being bent by 160 lbs of tension exerted over about 2.5-3 ft of distance between bolts and tuners (this regardless of position: playing vs ironing board). For the sake of argument, let's imagine that the bass neck with tuners weighs another 6 lbs. The centre of mass of the neck will be perhaps 1.5 ft from the attachment bolts, and the bending moment due to gravitation acting on that mass will act through the centre of mass. That's a moment of 9 ft-lbs bending the neck backwards with the instrument lying down and the neck unsupported (worst case scenario). In playing position that same moment acts, but this time bending the neck toward the feet of the player: 9 ft-lbs relieved toward the back of the neck and 9 ft-lbs added toward the player's feet. This compares with perhaps 160 lbs x 3 ft = 480 ft-lbs due to string tension which is constantly bending the neck in the fingerboard position. So...is there a gravitational effect? Maybe, but if so it's very small. In terms of setting action, about 9/480 which is about 2%. In this physicist's view, the ironing board is just fine for setting action.

Phew!.....You deserve a nice lie down in a shaded room after all that braincercise....

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Alright...

I agree with @Fat Freddy - Thanks for that detailed explanation!

 

[Fat Freddy]

Victorian patterns only work for Kinks cover bands.

Nonsense! .....

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I'm convinced that gravity is getting stronger in Albany NY....

How else would I seem to be getting heavier?.....

I just checked NASA's GRACE data, you're out of luck. GRACE Tellus : Multimedia - GRACE global gravity animation

 

[fakeneckplate'65]

...the amount of pull that gravity will have is soooo minute that it will make an incredibly negligible difference when compared with the pull of the strings. :/ Kind of like the amount of formaldehyde in a vaccine is less than the amount your body produces naturally on a daily basis.

Besides, how do you do a fret level when the bass is sitting sideways in playing position???

You straighten the neck in playing position & then crown frets when it's flat on the table?

 

[David Sutkin]

I overslept this morning and I was running late for work, I pulled a wrinkled shirt out of my dresser and then remembered reading something on TB about basses and ironing boards, so I used my '75 re-issue as an ironing board ..... got to work, read through this whole thread .... feeling pretty stupid right now.