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The P doesn't cut through anymore
- Thread starter Noot
- Start date
I am having the same problem as the OP with my P in a three piece! I love my P and I want to use it sometimes in a live setting too. But I have been using mt Ibbey ATK 300 (early 90's) and it kicks the mix right in the balls. My P sits pretty nice but I want to be where the OP is, cutting, not sitting.
I have asked this same question here on TB and I have gotten a lot of valuable suggestions. I finally settled on focusing on EQ. I run my basses through a GK 1001rb II into a Neo 410. The EQ and voice options on the 1001 are great, but they are still not enough. I decided to go with more EQ, the Source Audio Programmable EQ. It should be here tomorrow, I hope. I feel the OP's pain for sure. I want nothing more than to spill some P flavor over some of our songs. I think Im finally going to be able to accomplish that with the SA EQ I have coming. I keep hearing some echo that I need to get to that "sacred" 800hz area and bump the low mids down a little and Ill be there. I hope.
I hear you, I do. And to some extent I agree. But I have to say that that isnt the role every bassist is trying to fill. Especially if they are in a three piece. For me, the bottom end is important, but so is all the other sonic space not being covered by only having one guitar there. I am from the a different school I guess, but I want to be prominent and heard in the mix, I dont want to be sitting in it grooving all the time. Nothing wrong with groove and root sometimes, but in the band Im in, I need to be prominent. My guitarist doesnt really like soloing, which DOES NOT mean I want to or feel the need to solo because I dont, so I fill a lot of space where he is just power chording his way through most our songs. Dynamic has to be added somewhere and it usually comes from me and the drummer.
Lot of good (and some not so good) suggestions here.
My take: Stick with the P, work EQ, get the guitards to EQ away from your space, and change strings. Your strings are the biggest difference in your sound. Flats are far more focused, and will help you find a sonic space of your own. Rounds can't, don't, and won't help in your quest. They occupy so much of the frequency range that no part of it is strong enough to "cut" in a full mix. Geddy Lee uses rounds and is heard, but he's only contending with one guitar. Jamerson, Babbitt, and Kaye used flats and were heard through three or more guitars, piano, organ, and a full horn section. Define your space and OWN it.
My take: Stick with the P, work EQ, get the guitards to EQ away from your space, and change strings. Your strings are the biggest difference in your sound. Flats are far more focused, and will help you find a sonic space of your own. Rounds can't, don't, and won't help in your quest. They occupy so much of the frequency range that no part of it is strong enough to "cut" in a full mix. Geddy Lee uses rounds and is heard, but he's only contending with one guitar. Jamerson, Babbitt, and Kaye used flats and were heard through three or more guitars, piano, organ, and a full horn section. Define your space and OWN it.
There are lots of good suggestions above. Simplest one I can make: J bass. If your goal is to "cut through the mix" and "be heard" which are mine also, than a J will do that without too much of the EQ effort expressed above. It was described to me one time that the P sound is pillow that the rest of the band sits on where the J sound is meant for every note to be heard. I'm not saying that you couldn't get there with a P but it'll take some work. A J bass will accomplish what you need out of the case.
^ ^ ^
I know it's only me maybe, but I really experience the contrary,..I always have a love for Jazz bass, but I can't make it good,..yes, maybe it's just me
I know it's only me maybe, but I really experience the contrary,..I always have a love for Jazz bass, but I can't make it good,..yes, maybe it's just me
History suggests people began to notice this problem in the early 70s - which led to the development of active basses. Back in the late 60s power trio bass players like Jack Bruce and Andy Fraser played EB3s - and they were certainly heard. Modern amps may help the situation but for the type of music and situation described it seems perhaps an active bass with more dynamic range than a P bass will be required.
I also don't see that a Jazz will work necessarily. Flea must be one of the most accomplished players around but his brief period live with the early Jazz bass resulted in a thin sound which was not aggressive enough and he stopped using it again (thankfully in my opinion - as it subtracted from some of the classic songs in their repertoire).
You may also wish to try a mid heavier sound (dialled in from your amp) to cut through more.
I also don't see that a Jazz will work necessarily. Flea must be one of the most accomplished players around but his brief period live with the early Jazz bass resulted in a thin sound which was not aggressive enough and he stopped using it again (thankfully in my opinion - as it subtracted from some of the classic songs in their repertoire).
You may also wish to try a mid heavier sound (dialled in from your amp) to cut through more.
I can tell you that just having active electronics will not be enough. I have active EMG's in my P and I'm still not as pronounced as I'd like to be. I think my secret weapon will end up bring extra EQ frequencies
I use p basses, j basses and an active stingray. I never have trouble being heard or cutting through. And I play through a variety of backline amps. I use a pedalboard that contains a Zoom MS60b into a Tech 21 VT bass. The VT is my "amp tone" but the Zoom is what makes me cut through. It's all about eq and other instruments giving you space.
Get any good Eq pedal and you should be able to find a tone that works. Of all of my basses, the p basses usually are the easiest to get a good tone from.
Yes agreed but having an onboard EQ, especially with mid range control enables adjustment to suit individual songs. It's often a problem when guitarists play six string chords at the bottom end of the guitar - they often start off too loud anyway and this causes problems with the bass fulfilling it's role.
Having a powerful enough rig with plenty of headroom also helps.
This reminds me of how bad the Tech 21 Sansamp BDDI is. It just sucks out your tone and leaves you booming and ice-picking your band's ear out.
To the OP, he got a ton of suggestions already, I'm sure the solution is one of these tips.
One thing I'd suggest is to not change your technique too much. I used to play in a super loud rock band with two guitarists and what I ended up doing is playing very aggressively to a level where each note I played, 'clanked' against the fretboard, creating a loud percussive sound. It sure cut through the mix but I didn't really sound like a bassist anymore.
It's not always about EQing the bass - the other instruments need to stay 'in their zone'. I was in a band where one of the guitarists always had the bass EQ turned up on his amp 'so he could hear himself' - well, that ruins the stage mix which in turn makes playing with him a nightmare. Keyboardists' left hands are also guilty of hogging precious sonic space. If they don't understand their roles in the sound spectrum, how can we, as bassists, be the only ones that have to figure out how to sit in a mix?
To me 'cut through' and 'sit' are one and the same, because 'cut through' does not imply 'more treble' or 'more hi mids'. It's just as important that the other members of your band know how to EQ themselves in a live setting to make the band sound its best. When you're EQing and someone says 'more bass', you don't necessarily turn up the bass, you can turn down the mids. The same applies to a guitarist - he can turn down his bass EQ, then you, as a bassist, won't have to turn up the mids as much. When musicians don't know how to play together it makes for an awful night of mixing.
To me 'cut through' and 'sit' are one and the same, because 'cut through' does not imply 'more treble' or 'more hi mids'. It's just as important that the other members of your band know how to EQ themselves in a live setting to make the band sound its best. When you're EQing and someone says 'more bass', you don't necessarily turn up the bass, you can turn down the mids. The same applies to a guitarist - he can turn down his bass EQ, then you, as a bassist, won't have to turn up the mids as much. When musicians don't know how to play together it makes for an awful night of mixing.
This really is the true answer. Everyone has to leave sonic space for everyone else.
That's so right. Why are we helping this guy adjust his stuff when it's the bands responsibility to work it all out together. Well said.
True true and true. Each person in a band spends so much time learning their craft and not enough on how to play with others.
Without understanding the EQ on the BDDI better it will do that. However, it has an active EQ on it. Cutting the bass and treble esentially boosts the mids. I have played lots of gigs with these pedals and have NEVER had a problem getting a great sounding supportive tone.
Regarding a P-Bass cutting through... I never thought of precision basses as an instrument that "cuts through". More of a supportive fat tone that sits perfectly with the kick drum.
I always hear that complaint, but after having a bunch of time with them over the years, the only consistent thing was compliments from sound men and being able to hear myself when used as a pre than when I didn't. Some people simply don't like the tone, but some people also don't know how to work its EQ, which basically means if you don't want scooped, don't dime the bass and treble.
