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The Talk

A lot of the advice given in the article is crap - simple fear of "The Other"

This, however, is Dead On:


I grew up in a majority-black neighborhood and spent better than half of my school days going to majority-black Public schools. IME the feeling (for that 5% or so) that "Whitey has it coming to him" is nothing at all like vague, it is absolutely unshakeable and acted on at every single opportunity. I didn't learn that from a book, or from my parents, or some academic study written by some suburbanite working in an Ivy League college somewhere

I Lived It

Every single day, for years on end

By the time I got out of 3rd Grade, the racially-motivated shakedowns, muggings, and just plain beat-downs had already numbered in the dozens. By the time I finished 6th Grade, I had lost count of the beat-downs completely. Never, Ever, a one-on-one fight. Always at least a four-on one mob, with the other kids on the streets or on the playground or in the halls (or even a few times, right inside the classroom) saying and doing absolutely nothing to so much as express the slightest disapproval, much less stop it from happening. Maybe half the time, there was even a soundtrack from the peanut gallery that went "Kill that White ************!!!" or some unmistakably race-based variation on the theme

Granted, these were what we locals call "the riot years" in Trenton - roughly 1967 to 1972 - and open hostility between the races was at its all-time peak. It also needs to be noted that one of my constant tormentors later ended up on Death Row (sentence now modified to Life Without Parole, by virtue of the State of NJ abolishing the death penalty), and that he was one Seriously Vicious MoFo. Most of the others who took such savage delight in beating me down regularly were part of the same extended family. They hated Whitey with a passion that could scorch the sun and send it running away, howling in pain from the burns

Almost forty years later, I've come to terms with the fact that such people exist, and that such people are certainly not limited to any one race or ethnicity. IME there is roughly the same 5% of the local Italian-American community that was (and is....) just as bad. Same with the relatively new Latino population in the area - again, roughly 5% active haters and roughly 50% who sympathise to the extent that they will not intervene (even to simply call 911) under even the most horrific circumstances

The only good that came from those early days is that it left me with a highly developed "Sixth Sense" for hostility from people who would just as soon kill me as look at me, based solely on the color of my skin. In this area, that small percentage of thoroughly vicious psychopaths is still dominated by American Black people. So be it. It doesn't stop me from treating the other 95% as fairly and as honestly as I possibly can, but I am not foolish enough to believe that I can simply walk down Southard Street, or Stuyvesant, and never encounter one (or more, since they tend to run in packs) of that 5% either....

Sorry you had to go through that. No offense, I went through things growing up during the same time period in a different area and I guess the big difference is that I didn't assign my experience to the rest of this world. That may not be easy to see from your perspective.

I haven't seen anything approaching what you've described on the whole. Of course I realize I am not you.

The rest of what you quoted about being lead is the sort of thing some people love to imagine but by and large IME it's BS. Most Black people are simply trying to get through their day and go about their life.
:cool:
 
I'm certainly not surprised that white kids found themselves bullied when in the minority. Bullying is a pretty universal human behavior, and although it can be expressed racially, the targets tend to be kids who are some sort of visible out group or just plain quirky.

I suffered from some bullying or teasing from white and black kids in an integrated environment. It was due to being nerdy, fat, and a teacher's son. The only thing that didn't make it worse was that I was big enough to actually hurt a few tormentors when they went too far. I was also pretty quick witted and capable on embarrassing people who tried to insult me.

I think that LarryO has a valid point. In a very general sense, there are cultural differences that correlate with race that we tend to know about. That is why so many white bassists who post here talk about being "funky white bassists." If funk weren't clearly associated with black music, being a funky white bassist would not be a worth mentioning.

(Please, there is not need to mention the many, many white bassists who have laid down incredibly funky tracks over the years. I was just making a very general observation.)

The author I quoted struck a nerve because I do think that there are some kernels of truth in what he said about interacting with different groups. For instance, when he says don't be a good samaritan when seeing a black in distress, I know of parallel advice given by black parents. More than a few black parents have told their young men to avoid coming around white women when they are in distress because it might be seen as an attempt to rape or rob the women. In fact a story that has really stuck with me was one that my mother repeated from friend of hers. When he was a boy in Marengo County, Alabama, in the 1930s, he was riding to town in a wagon with his father and some other black men. They happened upon white women who had been in a car wreck who were moaning for help. His father said, "we can't stop, if we are seen with these white women, we could be killed." The party of black men kept moving, and the white women in the car all died.
 
i will never be a funky bass player, a running back in the NFL it play in the NBA. got your attention? Was that racist? No it wasn't. I will also never be a wall street executive, a NHL player or a pro fisherman.....still sound kind of racial? I didn't mention anything about race in this post
 
I'm certainly not surprised that white kids found themselves bullied when in the minority. Bullying is a pretty universal human behavior, and although it can be expressed racially, the targets tend to be kids who are some sort of visible out group or just plain quirky.

I suffered from some bullying or teasing from white and black kids in an integrated environment. It was due to being nerdy, fat, and a teacher's son. The only thing that didn't make it worse was that I was big enough to actually hurt a few tormentors when they went too far. I was also pretty quick witted and capable on embarrassing people who tried to insult me.

I think that LarryO has a valid point. In a very general sense, there are cultural differences that correlate with race that we tend to know about. That is why so many white bassists who post here talk about being "funky white bassists." If funk weren't clearly associated with black music, being a funky white bassist would not be a worth mentioning.

(Please, there is not need to mention the many, many white bassists who have laid down incredibly funky tracks over the years. I was just making a very general observation.)

The author I quoted struck a nerve because I do think that there are some kernels of truth in what he said about interacting with different groups. For instance, when he says don't be a good samaritan when seeing a black in distress, I know of parallel advice given by black parents. More than a few black parents have told their young men to avoid coming around white women when they are in distress because it might be seen as an attempt to rape or rob the women. In fact a story that has really stuck with me was one that my mother repeated from friend of hers. When he was a boy in Marengo County, Alabama, in the 1930s, he was riding to town in a wagon with his father and some other black men. They happened upon white women who had been in a car wreck who were moaning for help. His father said, "we can't stop, if we are seen with these white women, we could be killed." The party of black men kept moving, and the white women in the car all died.

These are (were) parts of the Talk that aren't universal.
 
These are (were) parts of the Talk that aren't universal.

That's for sure. Derbyshire was clearly trying to a write counterpoint to a number of articles that were written after a famous shooting that we have been instructed not to discuss in which African American writers talked about how they learned how to act in situations were they are seen as suspect, especially vis a vis the police.

As I said before, Derbyshire certainly hit on topics that many whites bring up with their kids (how many, I don't know,) but he also dragged out a lot of unfiltered racism that I am sure most mainstream conservatives find distasteful which was why he lost his job at the National Review
 
I'm certainly not surprised that white kids found themselves bullied when in the minority. Bullying is a pretty universal human behavior, and although it can be expressed racially, the targets tend to be kids who are some sort of visible out group or just plain quirky.

I'm sure you aren't trying to, but this sounds like rationalizing in a way I don't feel you would if the roles were reversed.
 
I'm sure you aren't trying to, but this sounds like rationalizing in a way I don't feel you would if the roles were reversed.

I guess I should have really harped on how racist those blacks kids instead of noting that these kids were indeed guilty of racist bullying, but I seriously doubt if they were above non-racial bullying also?

Bullies tend to abuse anyone they think they can get away with harassing. A white kid in a mainly black school? An obvious target, especially if that kid is not acculturated, really big, or a good athlete. Some whites in majority black schools do get along, but they tend to be kids that are at ease with black culture, or who have skills that most black kids admire.
 
i will never be a funky bass player, a running back in the NFL it play in the NBA. got your attention? Was that racist? No it wasn't. I will also never be a wall street executive, a NHL player or a pro fisherman.....still sound kind of racial? I didn't mention anything about race in this post

funky bass player
Running back in the NFL
Play in the NBA
Wall Street Executive
NHL Player
Pro Fisherman

Which of these items seems to be out of place? :D
 
funky bass player
Running back in the NFL
Play in the NBA
Wall Street Executive
NHL Player
Pro Fisherman

Which of these items seems to be out of place? :D

The funny thing is that funk has been such a big part of popular music for so long that being funky should simply be tool in a bassist's repitoire by now, even if the bassist is not a funk musician. I know I can get a good rock or pop feel , or a country feel if I want too just from having heard that music so much over the years. I can do a good Calypso or Latin feel too, but my Reggae is a bit weak.:hiding:
 
People have been hating each other because of racial issues since the beginning of time. This turd is just one guy in a line of billions who have said stuff like that. Honestly, I don't freaking care what color you are, I can spot a scumbag a mile away having run squad and living in a crap city for quite a few years.
 
A lot of the advice given in the article is crap - simple fear of "The Other"

This, however, is Dead On:


I grew up in a majority-black neighborhood and spent better than half of my school days going to majority-black Public schools. IME the feeling (for that 5% or so) that "Whitey has it coming to him" is nothing at all like vague, it is absolutely unshakeable and acted on at every single opportunity. I didn't learn that from a book, or from my parents, or some academic study written by some suburbanite working in an Ivy League college somewhere

I Lived It

Every single day, for years on end

Granted, these were what we locals call "the riot years" in Trenton - roughly 1967 to 1972 - and open hostility between the races was at its all-time peak...

I don't doubt your experience.

I think the bolded part is critical. I was also in the minority in high school as a white boy in a mostly black (around 90% in the 1980's) school system - and while there were 'rumors' aplenty about how scary the black people in my school were, NONE of those rumors had any bearing in reality whatsoever. NONE. Like every school, mostly white or otherwise, there were always a few idiots - of any color - but the idea that large populations of black people are any different than large populations of white people - especially as the linked article tries to imply - is based on utter BS, fear and unquestionable ignorance.

My school had it's less-than glorious days in the late 60's and early 70's - which is when the 10' tall barbed wire fences went up around the high school campus - to keep OUT the rioting hordes of white people who were starting to make regular forays onto the campus to start trouble with the newly integrated (it was called 'desegregation' back then) student body.

The fact that my school became predominantly black and was surrounded by a 10' high barbed-wire fence only made the BS rumors of how dangerous it was to be white there seem to have an iota of credibility - but the fact is that every day of my life as a very small minority at school was not only completely normal and uneventful, it was even really good most of the time - but otherwise uneventful. No 'clusters' of white-hating black people. No blitz attacks in the halls - no knifings or shootings - all of these were rampant in the rumor mills - NONE of them bore any resemblance to the truth. Not a single one. I don't really even recall there being that many fights of any kind - and when there were, it was rarely if ever 'race-related'.

This article is WHY those RUMORS existed. Scared, ignorant people who didn't know their own butts from holes in the ground opining about what 'those people' do to 'us' - were all baseless and only demonstrative of their own ignorance and hatred.

There is 'power' in fear when applied to the ignorant and incurious. The more people educate themselves, the less power such fear-mongering will have over society.
 
Ok, my favorite gem (that I don't think anyone has quoted yet):

(13) In that pool of forty million, there are nonetheless many intelligent and well-socialized blacks. (I’ll use IWSB as an ad hoc abbreviation.) You should consciously seek opportunities to make friends with IWSBs. In addition to the ordinary pleasures of friendship, you will gain an amulet against potentially career-destroying accusations of prejudice.

Nothing like being able to say "Some of my best friends are IWSBs!"

And, for the record, I'm white and have lived in neighborhoods with substantial black populations (I don't mean a couple of token blacks, I mean neighborhoods). I've had neighbors who seemed determined to match every negative stereotype that ever existed. I'm not too inclined to be PC or to pretend that the stereotypes are pure fiction that don't come from real types you meet in the community. But I never saw anything to justify that "5% of blacks hate all whites," still less that half of blacks will go along with such a 5%. And I had no problem walking through my neighborhood.
 
I honestly hate when people try to act like blacks, whites, Hispanics,Asians, native Americans....etc (sorry if I forgot your race) are all the same. No we are not. We have different traits (good and bad), different physical features, different cultures, histories......etc. I think we should recognize these differences in a positive manner rather than say " you can't single out a certain race"....... Cause guess what? Yes I can.

Yes, there are cultural differences between different ethnicities and these should not be forgotten, but at the same time I feel we need to focus teaching our young on how we're all the same.

There is only one race, the HUMAN RACE, everything else is just a social construct.

+1

I may be alone in this thought, but the differences between us is what makes us strong. Its not utilized, but maybe one day

You may not be alone in that thought, but would you like to expound upon how our differences make us strong? Im not arguing that they cant, and you stated that its not being utilized, which may be true. A lot people tend to use the differences amongst us to seperate and divide. Its much more practical to teach the young about the similarities between us. I would imagine more children could understand that concept rather than "we are different but equal".
 
For The Record, I don't think Dr. Cheese is trying to rationalize away the observation at all. I've seen enough blatant racism (and as I got older, structural racism) directed against black folks in general to pretty much agree with his point of view on many of our "TB race threads". I get the impression that he's old enough to remember (firsthand) just how far we've come since the 60's and 70's. Still more work to be done. It never ends....

Talking about it freely helps the process and I welcome the fact that he keeps on sticking his neck out there in order to start those conversations

I think the bolded part is critical. I was also in the minority in high school as a white boy in a mostly black (around 90% in the 1980's) school system - and while there were 'rumors' aplenty about how scary the black people in my school were, NONE of those rumors had any bearing in reality whatsoever. NONE. Like every school, mostly white or otherwise, there were always a few idiots - of any color - but the idea that large populations of black people are any different than large populations of white people - especially as the linked article tries to imply - is based on utter BS, fear and unquestionable ignorance

The proportions were even more extreme in the Public schools I went to. In Grade School, there were a grand total of 3 white kids out of a total enrollment of 600. One of those three happened to be the son of the State Commisioner of Education - a very principled kind of guy who refused to put his kid in Private School while he was being paid handsomely for overseeing all of the Public schools in the entire State. After his son suffered through pretty much the same things I did for a couple of years, he simply quit the job and moved his family out of the City of Trenton, never looking back for even a split second. The rest of my classmates were all black. In High School, out of a total student body of roughly 3000 maybe 100 of the students were white, the rest black. No Latino or other minority presence to speak of in those days - a very stark black/white divide with no shades of grey at all

Timing was another hugely important factor in my own experiences. Younger folks tend to overlook or unintentionally minimize a couple of things that they've probably read about in books, but don't really understand at a gut level

1 - The Vietnam War was in full swing then. Lots of tension simmering just under the surface among all sectors of society. Given that poor and Blue Collar kids ended up being unable to dodge the draft by going to college, or having Daddy wrangle a deferment out of his golfing buddy the local Congressman, the ranks of Combat Infantry (the ones who had to deal with the pointy end of the spear on a regular basis) were disproportionately filled with young black men. Inevitably, the ones that made it home at all, were pretty messed up by what they had lived through. Their bitterness and rage tended to add to the already obvious sense of unfairness and discrimination that the greater black community was already feeling. The steady trickle of cripples and body bags coming back weren't helping matters either.....

2 - The economy was in the toilet for much of this period. As usual, the "official" line coming from the Powers That Be was that everything was just peachy, but the facts on the ground were very different. The manufacturing sector of the economy was already starting to shrink and, as usual, the black community got hurt by this first and hardest

3 - In-Your-Face racism against black people was still very much a part of daily life then. NOTHING at all like it is now. These days, even the most virulent white racists are pretty much forced to resort to "code words" and certain ways of framing their opinions that publicly cover the ugliness in their minds with a thin veneer of 'civility' that allows them just enough wiggle room to escape direct confrontation over what they just said. In the late 60's and well into the 70's that was simply unnecessary. White people who were trying to stay fairly neutral used the term "colored". Older whites who actively supported the black causes of the time generally used the word "Negro" - younger white folks in that same general category ended up settling on "Black". The haters freely used the "N Word" in conversations both public and private, no matter who they were talking to and it was simply accepted by the vast majority of white people (no matter what their personal views on the subject) as just a fact of life

4 - By the mid-60's, it was all coming to a head. In 1967, 23 people were killed in the Invalid Link Removed. In 1968, Martin Luther King was murdered and all Hell broke loose in Trenton. The death toll from the riots in my home town was relatively low @ just one kid, who sadly enough was by all accounts a peacemaker not a destroyer, but as the linked article makes clear Trenton never recovered. Any more than that I can't say, due to the near-certainty of running afoul of the TB prohibition on political discourse

In any case, all of these things (and more) trickled down to the kids in school. There is no way they couldn't. I understand that now

There is 'power' in fear when applied to the ignorant and incurious. The more people educate themselves, the less power such fear-mongering will have over society.

Yes

Just try to remember the words written by Sam Clemens, so many years ago: "I've never allowed my Schooling to interfere with my Education" ;)

Books have their uses, and so do statistics. First-hand experience ultimately trumps all, in my book

I could've ended up a Hater. Really, considering my childhood experiences it would've been the easiest thing to do, by far. Occasionally I still get into a situation where the ugliness in my early life tries to take over. Those are the times when I have to remind myself of the most important lesson I learned from those days: any time you catch yourself condemning an entire group based on the actions of one individual, you're ****ing up and you need to remind yourself of all those times when other members of that very same group treated you better than your own