The Tube Challenge (Volume Two)

[JimmyM]

My understanding is they are susceptible to proximity effect, which would greatly increase the low end on that graph.

Its not necessarily a criticism, just a feature of dynamic mics in general, with th exception of RE-20's since the capsule in them is so far from the end of the grill.

With a voice, it does seem to have a proximity effect, but it doesn't seem so strong to me. All mics have at least a little proximity effect. But really, I have only had a chance to do just the most basic of recording tests with it, so I better not hang myself out on a limb too far with saying that. All I know is that I totally love the sound of it on anything I've run through it so far.

 

[theoldmiami]

When do we find out the answers?

 

[JimmyM]

I have the poll running for 5 days, but it seemed a bit long for the first test, so I'll give the results when the voting tapers off and we've heard from most of the regulars.

 

[theshadow2001]

Im thinking:

1.Ampeg
2.Markbass
3.SWR


Thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it.....until the results come out

I'm basing my opinion on the slap parts almost entirely. The others all sound fairly similar once again.

 

[theoldmiami]

Wow I can't wait. This is truly exciting. The tone of the first amp sure was great!!!

 

[ashbory]

Jimmy,
Do you think using a tube preamp for the mic might not skew the results a little. It could give the solid state amps some tubeyness that they don't have in real life.
I would think this would make more difference than the response of the mic, or the "flat" settings of the amp's tone controls.

 

[JustOpenYourMind]

1. Ampeg: Deep, fat, without too much high end, sounds just like my svt
2. SWR: lots of high end definition, the tone is not as pleasant to my ears.
3. Markbass: it seems to be voiced for a lot of mirange it has bark,

 

[Adam Bomb]

Jimmy: TEACH ME HOW TO FIGHT LIKE YOU!

--Grasshoppa

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy,
Do you think using a tube preamp for the mic might not skew the results a little. It could give the solid state amps some tubeyness that they don't have in real life.
I would think this would make more difference than the response of the mic, or the "flat" settings of the amp's tone controls.

Oh sure, anything's possible. But I only have one mic pre. And it's just as likely that a SS preamp could skew the results the other way as well. I'll refrain from commenting on the tones of each clip until the end, but once it's over, I think you'll see that it didn't skew them enough to matter.

 

[theshadow2001]

Jimmy,
Do you think using a tube preamp for the mic might not skew the results a little. It could give the solid state amps some tubeyness that they don't have in real life.
I would think this would make more difference than the response of the mic, or the "flat" settings of the amp's tone controls.

If it effects the signal then it will do so to equally to each of the signals. Since the error would be common to the lot I doubt it's going to make a huge difference.

 

[fdeck]

Amp tone controls do not have "flat" responses unless they have hi-fi tone stacks such as baxandall. When the knobs are set to flat, it actually is far from being flat as it represents the voicing of that particular amp.

The B-15N has a James stack, which is close to flat when the knobs are centered. The LMII is probably flat as well. Don't know about the other one. Nothing like hooking up an analyzer to find out. What a nice tidy circuit design, the B-15N. It might be fun to build one.

JimmyM, did you get a grounded cord installed? We'd hate to lose you before the polling is finished.

But I can not see how this relates to the fun experiment being conducted here There is no way to match the freq responses of these amps with their stock tone controls and frankly I don't think it should be done Test is awesome as it is Post processing EQ ain't gonna be enough since power amps do have signature sound (plus preamp EQ is before the PA) and how they push the speakers vary greatly, too.

I was able to dial a strongly voiced bass head to within 1/4 dB of flat. If the amps don't have the same frequency response, then there's no way to say that anything else matters.

As for the signature sound of power amps, some analyzer plots would really show what the differences are, without all of the disputes about exactly how to conduct a listening test.

Unless the analyzer makes the effect vanish.

 

[Jim Carr]

Jimmy, thanks for this.
Ok, I've only heard them on my Mac laptop, but I think they are this:

1) B-15 (Tubes)
2) SWR (Hybrid)
3) LMII (SS)

At least that expresses my lame prejudices!!!

 

[brothernewt]

Wow... quite a bit harder to tell this time.

I'm going with:
1) B-15
2) SWR
3) LM-II

I didn't dig the Markbass when I tried it, but based on this recording, I can see why it's so popular.

 

[zenlowend]

I hear

1.LMII
2.Ampeg
3.SWR
Hope I'm right!

 

[JimmyM]

The voting is 20 to 13 to 16 currently, and I must say that I'm pretty shocked. SWR is a brand that gets little respect on Talkbass, yet all three amps are getting a lot of votes. I think this says volumes about how SWR has gotten the short end of the neck here on Talkbass. I can't wait to tell everyone the results, so I'm going to. Not now, but maybe after the weekend.



I think I would like to do one more tube challenge, and that is a DI tube challenge. But I need some opinions first...both the Markbass and the SWR are post-pre or can be set for post-pre, but the B-15N has no DI, of course. I could take a speaker DI from my H&K Red Box Classic for the B, but that would be a dead giveaway from the SWR and Markbass's DI. So do you think it would be a fair challenge to use the speaker DI from the Red Box for all the amps?

 

[fdeck]

The voting is 20 to 13 to 16 currently, and I must say that I'm pretty shocked. SWR is a brand that gets little respect on Talkbass, yet all three amps are getting a lot of votes. I think this says volumes about how SWR has gotten the short end of the neck here on Talkbass. I can't wait to tell everyone the results, so I'm going to. Not now, but maybe after the weekend.

As the voting stands, more than half of us are wrong!

 

[rooted]

1 SWR
2 LMII
3 B15

What's the prize?

 

[JimmyM]

1 SWR
2 LMII
3 B15

What's the prize?

You get to listen to me play the same boring riffs three times!

 

[edbutler3]

I'm amazed at how similar they sound. I *guessed* #3, but it's really a complete toss-up for me. I even got out my good headphones. (I do hear differences, but they are subtle enough that I don't have a clear preference for any of the amps. If I was trying decide which one to buy based on the recordings, it would be a tough decision.)

I know there's been a lot of talk about this already, but I wonder how much effect the rest of the signal chain has: speaker cab, microphone, mic preamp. Maybe the speaker cab has enough of its own "color" that it obscures the smaller amount of color coming from the amp? (Or maybe amp heads really sound a lot more alike than we tend to think -- but I'm not quite ready to say that's the case yet...)

JimmyM: Do the amps sound that similar to you when you are standing in the room with them? Do you feel like the recording is somehow making the amps sound more similar than they do live?

 

[JimmyM]

Ed, in all honesty, I don't hear any colorations that make them sound more similar on the mic than in person. I have had fairly consistent tonal goals as far as amps (SVT, B-15) since I started playing and I bought all of these amps with that tonal goal at a much lighter weight in mind. So they do sound similar in many ways, but I can definitely tell a difference between all 3, especially with this PR 40. And in a mix, I think I could spot at least one of them every time.