the zero fret

[Goatrope]

I thought I'd be able to formulate, in my own mind, which was best, but neither seem to offer a distinct advantage over the other.

What if into this conversation we introduce the compensated nut, like EBMM uses? Is that a step forward, back, or sideways from the standard and zero fret approach? It seems to me it ought to be a clear step forward. Real advantage or marketing hype?

 

[sunbeast]

No more so than a regular nut.

I disagree- you can see it on nearly any vintage bass with a zero fret that has actually been played alot. I've rarely had to replace a nut on a vintage instrument unless there was a vibrato of some sort in use or the nut was cracked somehow outside of normal playing. I think part of the issue is the string being able to move both laterally and horizontally against the zero fret, whereas a string in a typical nut can only move in one direction.

 

[sunbeast]

Should also add that I use 0.055" high stainless steel for my zero frets but use 0.047" nickel silver for all the other frets. That addresses the "constant wear" issue and gives me a bit of extra clearance. I am sympathetic to the argument that the zero fret should be the same height as the others (logic being that neck relief should do the job), but I've got the stainless wire for about 10 more builds before I have to re-evaluate my stock.

I used to think that too, but several people I trust (including @Bruce Johnson IIRC) have pointed out that the nut end of the neck area tends to be somewhat less predictable under tension due to the change in the structure of the neck and end of the truss rod which makes the relief right at the very end of the neck vary from the ideal. In practice I've found a little extra clearance is important whenever deepening nut slots, and that seems to be the general wisdom from people who have done this for longer than I've been alive. Using stainless wire for the zero fret also makes the most sense to me!

 

[Zooberwerx]

Should also add that I use 0.055" high stainless steel for my zero frets but use 0.047" nickel silver for all the other frets. That addresses the "constant wear" issue and gives me a bit of extra clearance. I am sympathetic to the argument that the zero fret should be the same height as the others (logic being that neck relief should do the job), but I've got the stainless wire for about 10 more builds before I have to re-evaluate my stock.

The ~0.010" offset is the magic number and parrots that of its nut counterpart. Not much relief in that neck-of-the-woods.

Riis

 

[Turnaround]

A string in a regular nut is subject to the same side-to-side vibration as a zero fret. Both are subject to longitudinal abrasion from tuning. But the typical nut is a softer material than a zero fret. It's a wash.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I thought I'd be able to formulate, in my own mind, which was best, but neither seem to offer a distinct advantage over the other.

What if into this conversation we introduce the compensated nut, like EBMM uses? Is that a step forward, back, or sideways from the standard and zero fret approach? It seems to me it ought to be a clear step forward. Real advantage or marketing hype?

Buzz Feiten does this via a zero fret with a tedious intonation process. Ranks right up there with micro-tuners on bass bridges.

Somebody eventually said: "...it's a bass fer cryin' out loud!".

Riis

 

[sunbeast]

A string in a regular nut is subject to the same side-to-side vibration as a zero fret. Both are subject to longitudinal abrasion from tuning. But the typical nut is a softer material than a zero fret. It's a wash.

In practice though, have you had to replace many old bone/plastic nuts on basses (without vibratos) because they just wore out from normal use and caused buzzing? To me that has been super rare. On the other hand, I've rarely seen a well-played older instrument with a zero fret that didn't have divots in the zero fret beyond the wear in the other frets. It is almost ubiquitous- and if it started at the "ideal" height, then it would need to be replaced.

 

[sunbeast]

Should also add that I use 0.055" high stainless steel for my zero frets but use 0.047" nickel silver for all the other frets. That addresses the "constant wear" issue and gives me a bit of extra clearance. I am sympathetic to the argument that the zero fret should be the same height as the others (logic being that neck relief should do the job), but I've got the stainless wire for about 10 more builds before I have to re-evaluate my stock.

Here's a post I found from @Bruce Johnson about this that I think is worth consideration: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/why-use-a-zero-fret.1479506/#post-24397325

 

[BioDriver]

IME it’s a nice detail but ultimately doesn’t make a noticeable difference in a band setting

 

[ahbradot]

My MTD is zero fret and it's by far the easiest to play out of the 30 basses that I've have owned.

 

[HolmeBass]

what's the general consensus on the zero fret?

my sandberg has one and the action is probably the best of all my basses.

but i'm sure there must be a downside otherwise they'd be standard on all basses, right?

Cost is the main downside.

 

[lunarpollen]

The issue with wear on the zero fret is caused by the distance between the nut and the zero fret. If the nut is cut so that the front of the slots hang over the fret (so that the fret effectively acts as the floor of the nut at the front of the nut, the slots constrain the string range of motion. But if the nut is separated by distance from the first fret, you can get excessive wear on that fret, and bending strings can cause the string to catch on the divots worn into the fret. For the least amount of issues, you want the nut and zero fret to be as close to one another as possible, ideally touching one another, if not with the front of the nut undercut the thickness of the fret so that the zero fret fits in there.

 

[tpaul]

My only opinion on the zero fret is that it would be a great name for a musicians' hang-out bar.

 

[L-u-A-R]

Before I owned a bass or knew anything about gear. I played on a public church bass or the other bassist's bass, both with regular nuts.
I never played solo, only in band setting, but ended up developing a habit of avoiding open notes, because they 'felt' (sounded) different to me.

When I finally decided to get a bass, during my research, I discovered two things simultaneously.
Zero-fret, and the reason I disliked open notes.

what's the general consensus on the zero fret?

The zero-fret solved my open note consistency issue.
Zero-fret can make string (gauge) changes more convenient.
A good zero fret lets you get a great setup dialled in.

Historically, cheaply manufactured instruments used zero-frets, which gave it a bad rep, and may be a contributor to the idea that zero-frets wear quicker.
I'm sure the higher quality instruments we see them on nowadays have implemented it better.

but i'm sure there must be a downside otherwise they'd be standard on all basses, right?

No significant downside, I wish it was more common.
Us humans are a stubborn bunch.

 

[gormsby]

The ~0.010" offset is the magic number and parrots that of its nut counterpart. Not much relief in that neck-of-the-woods.

Here's a post I found from @Bruce Johnson about this that I think is worth consideration: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/why-use-a-zero-fret.1479506/#post-24397325

Details are lost in the mists of memory, but I suspect that I formulated my initial approach after reading that post by Bruce -- it predates my own first builds by a couple years.

 

[Giffro]

If I designed my own bass it would have a zero fret. Had that on an old Vox I used to own and I loved it. Evens out open strings and fretting that 1st fret feels a lot better.

I bet your old Vox went from zero fret to 60 in 2 seconds flat loll

 

[Zooberwerx]

Details are lost in the mists of memory, but I suspect that I formulated my initial approach after reading that post by Bruce -- it predates my own first builds by a couple years.

Got my #'s from Michael Tobias years ago when discussing the zero fret / Buzz Feiten interaction.

Riis

 

[coyote1]

Reason for no zero fret: additional material and labor costs.

I would prefer it on my fretted instruments, but don’t really miss it when it’s not there.

 

[sunbeast]

I thought I'd be able to formulate, in my own mind, which was best, but neither seem to offer a distinct advantage over the other.

What if into this conversation we introduce the compensated nut, like EBMM uses? Is that a step forward, back, or sideways from the standard and zero fret approach? It seems to me it ought to be a clear step forward. Real advantage or marketing hype?

Compensated nuts are a solution to a different "problem"- being that different string sizes and constructions between the different strings across a set can tend to cause consistent measurable intonation issues in the lower register of the instrument. A zero fret doesn't inherently have anything to do with compensating for intonation (though I suspect in many cases it does help overall intonation by making it easier to have an ideally low string height over the first few frets, where most factory nuts aren't cut low enough- it doesn't do anything to compensate for differences between strings though), its just an alternative approach to a traditional nut and located in the same place that a standard bone or plastic nut would end.

 

[BassicJazzy]

In practice though, have you had to replace many old bone/plastic nuts on basses (without vibratos) because they just wore out from normal use and caused buzzing? To me that has been super rare. On the other hand, I've rarely seen a well-played older instrument with a zero fret that didn't have divots in the zero fret. It is almost ubiquitous- and if it started at the "ideal" height, then it would need to be replaced.

Unfortunately the only nuts I've worn out are not on my bass.