Theory vs. Feel

[Richard Lindsey]

I don't think most of the people talking about feel in this thread know what feel is. Again, I think they're referring to instinct or latent talent.

+1. For example, feel is not the same as having a good ear, or good tone.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Wrong notes with good feel are wrong notes.

+1 And the right notes with bad feel is an off day........but still the right notes.....

 

[Fergie Fulton]

+1. For example, feel is not the same as having a good ear, or good tone.

I would say that is exactly part of what feel is.
Feel is the outside influences of academics. Academics is quantifed, in as much as what is taught to one applies to all, its information is consistant. Developing a good ear and tone may never happen for some players..... no matter what they learn or how many years he study or play.

All the things we cannot quantify are in fact elements of feel...if they were not the would be part of theory and apply to everyone.

 

[jay tay]

In what other professions would this attitude be considered a plus or even desirable?

Dentist.....Don't really understand all the tooth tooth and hygiene stuff, but i know my way around a mouth.

Surgeon.....Anatomy..don't need it, i'll just rumage around till we find something that should not be there.

Lawyer...But your honour i don't know much about the law, but my client is not liable... he told me so....and he has a trusting face.

And so on...nuff said.

erm....

how about a sculptor,

painter, actor, dancer, and any other Artist!

Music is an art, you can't really compare artists to processionals such as accountants or lawyers.

 

[Faderoktopus]

That would depend on in what type of musician you are.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I would say that is exactly part of what feel is.
Feel is the outside influences of academics. Academics is quantifed, in as much as what is taught to one applies to all, its information is consistant. Developing a good ear and tone may never happen for some players..... no matter what they learn or how many years he study or play.

All the things we cannot quantify are in fact elements of feel...if they were not the would be part of theory and apply to everyone.

No, I wouldn't agree at all. Maybe it's a UK/US thing, but here, when you say someone plays with good feel, it typically doesn't mean they play by ear instead of reading, or anything like that, it means they have certain nuances in their playing that make the music feel good. (Or not.) It doesn't really have a bearing on how they learn to play or how they approach music. IOW, feel is about the way two players can play the exact same line, yet it feels different. You can be reading a line and play it with enormous feel, or you can play it by ear and have it feel dead as a doornail.

Of course, that's not the only way the term is used even here. There are some players who categorize themselves as "feel players." But IME most good musicians I've come across use "feel" to describe nuance or inflection, not basic approach to playing and certainly not just everything that's outside the influence of academics.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

erm....

how about a sculptor,

painter, actor, dancer, and any other Artist!

Music is an art, you can't really compare artists to processionals such as accountants or lawyers.

Business and pleasure my friend ...two very different things, if any of the above is your business then your art lone won't get you through.
All of the above artists can be studied last time i looked, you can get degrees in fine art, sculpting, dance, pottery, fashion etc...all can be studied.

So the question i would ask back is, if it is all so natural, then why do so many study, and why do so many places of learning offer the courses?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

No, I wouldn't agree at all. Maybe it's a UK/US thing, but here, when you say someone plays with good feel, it typically doesn't mean they play by ear instead of reading, or anything like that, it means they have certain nuances in their playing that make the music feel good. (Or not.) It doesn't really have a bearing on how they learn to play or how they approach music. IOW, feel is about the way two players can play the exact same line, yet it feels different. You can be reading a line and play it with enormous feel, or you can play it by ear and have it feel dead as a doornail.

Of course, that's not the only way the term is used even here. There are some players who categorize themselves as "feel players." But IME most good musicians I've come across use "feel" to describe nuance or inflection, not basic approach to playing and certainly not just everything that's outside the influence of academics.

Fair points Richard, but feel has to be outside what cannot be quantifed and taught academicly. Feel is everything you have ever touched or experienced in you life, even if it was a concious register to the brain you remember, or a sub concious one you don't realize, it all goes toward feel. What you see, hear, touch, the people you have loved, lost, the trama of life the joy of love, a mothers touch, a fathers anger, the way they feel at that moment..etc all contribute to a persons feel.

In a past debate with Jeff Berlin he advocated the separating of art and academics. Great and i agreed, but how do you seperate them? You cannot turn it off and on, you learn to harness it and use it in your own way. Yes you can be guided but in the learning it from another you take on some of there ideas and issues...look around at the Jaco, Victor, Marcus, Jimi, SRV etc clones. They are so far off the mark from who they idolise they doom their chances of ever understanding themselves. As usual with Jeff that debate got heated because he cound not quantify what he was saying...he just knew he was right......"well that is a feeling your right then Jeff".........................................................debated ended abruptly.

That is why when you say no two players are the same it it is a fact, they cannot be truly quantified and reproduced as an academic principal.
In much the same way as the person that calls themselves a "feel player"... how do they know? what are they comparing it to? Its a feeling and feelings change, but academics of music are constant.
Musics applications can change, but its fundimentals are solid, quantifyable and teachable.

 

[Roy Vogt]

I've created a poll about Pro and Semi-Pro Bassists and their training. Please indulge me and vote. Thanks!
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/pro-semipro-players-how-much-training-783840/