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They Say Crime Is On The Decrease....
- Thread starter ZenG
- Start date
Not the narcotic use itself but the crime surrounding it when it is illegal and users made into criminals.
I won't argue with you because all of your statements so far are based on what you believe to be so, but not backed up by facts or experience.
People say this because it has been proven over and over again in many places and times.
No. Argue please. I want to be the smartest I can be, so if you can offere solid proof as to why it doesn't deter any crime at all, then I'll believe you.
EDIT: although facts help, this thread is purely speculation and opinion. You have offered some facts, which is good, but it is still largely opinion based. It isn't a bad thing that US cops are well armed.
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Because when the death penalty for certain crimes has been removed crime has not increased, and when it has been introduced or reinstated crime has not decreased. This is easy enough to measure and has been repeatedly with the same results.
Sorry for being harsh about your other opinions, but the a serré to the list you made all seem intuitive and correct but are not borne out by facts and statistics.
Whether it is a good thing or a bad thing depends on what you mean by good and bad. If you feel more safe then you can say it's good, but if you can show that crime has not decreased because of the higher amounts of weaponry than you can say it's bad, if the side effects are more innocent people being injured, a feeling of the police being like an occupying army by the citizens, for example.
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Valid point. So, I guess the argument for the death penalty is that it it exists so we don't have to pay for criminals to stay in jail the rest of their lives. So, it's now a moral dilemma. Should we let criminals live, pay for them, and always fear that somehow they might get out, or kill them?
That would be a valid argument, except that it costs more to keep an inmate on death row and execute them that it does to hold them in prison for life.
The number of killers that escape and kill again is far smaller than the number of innocent people killed by the state for doing a crime they didn't commit.
This to me ends any moral dilemma there might be.
There is certainly a cost for both. Do you have the costs for each?
I do think that there needs to be drastic measures so that innocent people aren't killed and that guilty people are punished. If that means take away the death penalty and just keep prisoners in prison, so be it.
First let me say Crime was far worse in the US in the 70's, there was a reason that "law and order" candidates seemed to be in demand in American politics at that point in our history. Large swathes of our central cities had grown grossly unsafe, places like Central Park, Times Square, Michigan Ave in Chicago and South Beach, weren't the gentrified family friendly, clean areas they are now. Between mugging, gang violence, and open drug sales and prostitution you were taking your life in your own hands to visit. While there are still areas of crime especially in major US cities and plenty of rural issues with meth,etc, it is not in any way as widespread as the 70's in the US.
There are multiple reasons for the drop in overall violent crime in the US:
1) Demographics, "youths" tend to commit violent crime, with the exception of the Monty Python skit of vicious gangs of crochet addicted elders, most criminal violence tends to be a young persons activity, and the birth rate in the US has slowed, and Baby Boomers are getting to old to be gang bangers.
2) The reality is while I agree that our Jails are overpopulated, the "lock them up and throw away the key" attitude certainly contributes to less violent crime. Most criminals are repeat offenders. And if they are in Sing-sing they aren't preying on the average citizen
3) More guns in the hands of law abiding citizens. As concealed carry permits have become more available firearms crime has decreased. It may not be a causation, but it's hard to argue with the FBI's own numbers that armed private citizens prevent about 2000 violent felonies a year.
4) "Broken Windows" policing, while I agree this can go to far, the reality is letting people get away with small crimes like vandalism ultimately leads to the wrong attitude about crime in society. I also suspect that the kid arrested for throwing rocks thru a window who ends up with some kind of juvie community service is much less likely to move on to the nastier stuff.
5) Suburbanization of society. The fact of the matter is as more Americans got their own place in the burbs, they were living in less crowded conditions, with less possibility of conflict, and the responsibility and pride of maintaining their own properties.
Has the pendulum swung to far in the Law and Order direction? Perhaps?
There are multiple reasons for the drop in overall violent crime in the US:
1) Demographics, "youths" tend to commit violent crime, with the exception of the Monty Python skit of vicious gangs of crochet addicted elders, most criminal violence tends to be a young persons activity, and the birth rate in the US has slowed, and Baby Boomers are getting to old to be gang bangers.
2) The reality is while I agree that our Jails are overpopulated, the "lock them up and throw away the key" attitude certainly contributes to less violent crime. Most criminals are repeat offenders. And if they are in Sing-sing they aren't preying on the average citizen
3) More guns in the hands of law abiding citizens. As concealed carry permits have become more available firearms crime has decreased. It may not be a causation, but it's hard to argue with the FBI's own numbers that armed private citizens prevent about 2000 violent felonies a year.
4) "Broken Windows" policing, while I agree this can go to far, the reality is letting people get away with small crimes like vandalism ultimately leads to the wrong attitude about crime in society. I also suspect that the kid arrested for throwing rocks thru a window who ends up with some kind of juvie community service is much less likely to move on to the nastier stuff.
5) Suburbanization of society. The fact of the matter is as more Americans got their own place in the burbs, they were living in less crowded conditions, with less possibility of conflict, and the responsibility and pride of maintaining their own properties.
Has the pendulum swung to far in the Law and Order direction? Perhaps?
Interesting article in this months issue of Americas First freedom written by Marshall Lewin called "Are the Bad Guys Winning?"
Baltimore sees its deadliest month since 1972....42 murders in may alone
Chicago shootings exceed 1,000 in the first six months of 2015
New York Murders rise by 20%
Atlanta Homicides rise by 32%
Milwaukee homicides rise by 180%
Proven statistical Fact!: Gun murders in the U.S. are concentrated in big cities that typically have the strictest gun-control regulations or outright BANS. And it is those cities’ gun murder rates that are comparable to the rates in some of the deadliest countries in the world.
A United Nations 2010 chart lists the U.S. as having a murder rate of 5.22 per 100,000 people. The world average homicide rate: 9.63 per 100,000.
And 89 countries have higher murder rates than the U.S.
America is not even in the same league as the worst offenders. Honduras has a murder rate of 60.87 per 100,000. Jamaica 59.5. El Salvador 51.83. Guatemala 45.17. Colombia 40.1. Trinidad and Tobago 39.67 Angola 38.59. South Africa 36.54. Burundi 37.38 Lesotho 36.69 Zimbabwe 34.29. Belize 34.26.
The statistics on gun murders shed even more light.
The U.S. may have the highest level of gun ownership in the world, but its rate of gun homicides is only about three per 100,000.
Gun homicides in the United States are concentrated in major urban areas. And those cities, typically Democratic strongholds with the most stringent gun control laws in the nation, have gun murder rates that rival those of the most violent countries in the world.
New Orleans (with a rate 62.1 gun murders per 100,000 people) would rank second in the world.
Detroit’s gun-homicide rate (35.9) is just a bit less than El Salvador (39.9).
Baltimore’s rate (29.7) is not too far off that of Guatemala (34.8).
Gun murder in Newark (25.4) and Miami (23.7) is comparable to Colombia (27.1).
Washington D.C. (19) has a higher rate of gun homicide than Brazil (18.1).
Atlanta’s rate (17.2) is about the same as South Africa (17).
Cleveland (17.4) has a higher rate than the Dominican Republic (16.3).
Gun murder in Buffalo (16.5) is similar to Panama (16.2).
Gun homicide in Chicago (11.6) is similar to Guyana (11.5).
Phoenix’s rate (10.6) is slightly higher than Mexico (10).
Los Angeles (9.2) is comparable to the Philippines (8.9).
Boston rate (6.2) is higher than Nicaragua (5.9).
These laws simply mean people have no way to protect themselves or their homes and property and Criminals know it!
when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns!
Now let us consider the case of Kennesaw Georgia
Kennesaw, Georgia's ordinance requiring heads of households (with certain exceptions) to keep at least one firearm in their homes.
The city's population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996 (latest available estimate). Yet there have been only three murders: two with knives (1984 and 1987) and one with a firearm (1997). After the law went into effect in 1982, crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982.
And it has stayed impressively low. In addition to nearly non-existent homicide (murders have averaged a mere 0.19 per year), the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and rapes have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998.
With all the attention that has been heaped upon the lawful possession of firearms lately, you would think that a city that requires gun ownership would be the center of a media feeding frenzy. It isn't. The fact is I can't remember a major media outlet even mentioning Kennesaw. Can you?
The reason is obvious. Kennesaw proves that the presence of firearms actually improves safety and security. This is not the message that the media want us to hear. They want us to believe that guns are evil and are the cause of violence.
The facts tell a different story. What is even more interesting about Kennesaw is that the city's crime rate decreased with the simple knowledge that the entire community was armed. The bad guys didn't force the residents to prove it. Just knowing that residents were armed prompted them to move on to easier targets. Most criminals don't have a death wish.
Detroit has the second highest murder rate in the nation and is considered by many to be the most dangerous city in which to live in the United States. Simply put, gun control, as a means of controlling crime and protecting law abiding citizens, is a dismal failure.
The reason is quite simple. Criminals don’t obey laws, register their guns, or bother getting permits. In fact, criminals are generally in favor of more stringent gun controls because it makes their criminal activities safer.
Rather than following the progressive model of gun control, where law-abiding citizens are disarmed and only criminals possess firearms that worked so well in Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Australia, and Britain, Americans should be looking at the immense success of “universal” gun ownership in places like Switzerland or Kennesaw, GA. In Kennesaw, for instance, all citizens are required to own at least one firearm and keep ammunition. As a result, Kennesaw is reported to have the lowest crime rate of any city its size in America. And crime statistics show the downward trend is positive as word of the “armed city” spreads.
In Switzerland, every male is part of the national military and is required to keep their fully automatic weapons and ammunition at home, when not on duty. Switzerland is listed as one of the top 20 countries for safety.
also a proven Statistical fact that 10 of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average
Politicians refusing to stop criminals hell they even enable them in some cases while at the same time working to restrict or take away the rights of Law abiding citizens is the prime reason why Americans need their second amendment rights now more than ever.
there are 33,000 gangs with more than 1.4 million members active in the U.S..... hell there are over 100,000 documented in Chicago alone!!
As of this year Obama's Immigration and customs enforcement has released 195,900 convicted criminal aliens in the U.S.
Barack Obamas former chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel who is now mayor of Chicago thinks more gun control is the answer....yeah cause the Disarm is really working in that city..lol
there is absolutely no way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals...it's not even sane to suggest such a thing
Chicago ranks Dead last in federal Gun Prosecution....why do we need new laws when they won't enforce the ones we already have in place!?
all that said nationwide violent crime has ben decreasing for 20 years straight, FBI stats prove that the national murder rate is lower today than it has been in 50 years and that overall violent crime rate is lower than it has been in 40 years
Baltimore sees its deadliest month since 1972....42 murders in may alone
Chicago shootings exceed 1,000 in the first six months of 2015
New York Murders rise by 20%
Atlanta Homicides rise by 32%
Milwaukee homicides rise by 180%
Proven statistical Fact!: Gun murders in the U.S. are concentrated in big cities that typically have the strictest gun-control regulations or outright BANS. And it is those cities’ gun murder rates that are comparable to the rates in some of the deadliest countries in the world.
A United Nations 2010 chart lists the U.S. as having a murder rate of 5.22 per 100,000 people. The world average homicide rate: 9.63 per 100,000.
And 89 countries have higher murder rates than the U.S.
America is not even in the same league as the worst offenders. Honduras has a murder rate of 60.87 per 100,000. Jamaica 59.5. El Salvador 51.83. Guatemala 45.17. Colombia 40.1. Trinidad and Tobago 39.67 Angola 38.59. South Africa 36.54. Burundi 37.38 Lesotho 36.69 Zimbabwe 34.29. Belize 34.26.
The statistics on gun murders shed even more light.
The U.S. may have the highest level of gun ownership in the world, but its rate of gun homicides is only about three per 100,000.
Gun homicides in the United States are concentrated in major urban areas. And those cities, typically Democratic strongholds with the most stringent gun control laws in the nation, have gun murder rates that rival those of the most violent countries in the world.
New Orleans (with a rate 62.1 gun murders per 100,000 people) would rank second in the world.
Detroit’s gun-homicide rate (35.9) is just a bit less than El Salvador (39.9).
Baltimore’s rate (29.7) is not too far off that of Guatemala (34.8).
Gun murder in Newark (25.4) and Miami (23.7) is comparable to Colombia (27.1).
Washington D.C. (19) has a higher rate of gun homicide than Brazil (18.1).
Atlanta’s rate (17.2) is about the same as South Africa (17).
Cleveland (17.4) has a higher rate than the Dominican Republic (16.3).
Gun murder in Buffalo (16.5) is similar to Panama (16.2).
Gun homicide in Chicago (11.6) is similar to Guyana (11.5).
Phoenix’s rate (10.6) is slightly higher than Mexico (10).
Los Angeles (9.2) is comparable to the Philippines (8.9).
Boston rate (6.2) is higher than Nicaragua (5.9).
These laws simply mean people have no way to protect themselves or their homes and property and Criminals know it!
when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns!
Now let us consider the case of Kennesaw Georgia
Kennesaw, Georgia's ordinance requiring heads of households (with certain exceptions) to keep at least one firearm in their homes.
The city's population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996 (latest available estimate). Yet there have been only three murders: two with knives (1984 and 1987) and one with a firearm (1997). After the law went into effect in 1982, crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982.
And it has stayed impressively low. In addition to nearly non-existent homicide (murders have averaged a mere 0.19 per year), the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and rapes have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998.
With all the attention that has been heaped upon the lawful possession of firearms lately, you would think that a city that requires gun ownership would be the center of a media feeding frenzy. It isn't. The fact is I can't remember a major media outlet even mentioning Kennesaw. Can you?
The reason is obvious. Kennesaw proves that the presence of firearms actually improves safety and security. This is not the message that the media want us to hear. They want us to believe that guns are evil and are the cause of violence.
The facts tell a different story. What is even more interesting about Kennesaw is that the city's crime rate decreased with the simple knowledge that the entire community was armed. The bad guys didn't force the residents to prove it. Just knowing that residents were armed prompted them to move on to easier targets. Most criminals don't have a death wish.
Detroit has the second highest murder rate in the nation and is considered by many to be the most dangerous city in which to live in the United States. Simply put, gun control, as a means of controlling crime and protecting law abiding citizens, is a dismal failure.
The reason is quite simple. Criminals don’t obey laws, register their guns, or bother getting permits. In fact, criminals are generally in favor of more stringent gun controls because it makes their criminal activities safer.
Rather than following the progressive model of gun control, where law-abiding citizens are disarmed and only criminals possess firearms that worked so well in Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Australia, and Britain, Americans should be looking at the immense success of “universal” gun ownership in places like Switzerland or Kennesaw, GA. In Kennesaw, for instance, all citizens are required to own at least one firearm and keep ammunition. As a result, Kennesaw is reported to have the lowest crime rate of any city its size in America. And crime statistics show the downward trend is positive as word of the “armed city” spreads.
In Switzerland, every male is part of the national military and is required to keep their fully automatic weapons and ammunition at home, when not on duty. Switzerland is listed as one of the top 20 countries for safety.
also a proven Statistical fact that 10 of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average
Politicians refusing to stop criminals hell they even enable them in some cases while at the same time working to restrict or take away the rights of Law abiding citizens is the prime reason why Americans need their second amendment rights now more than ever.
there are 33,000 gangs with more than 1.4 million members active in the U.S..... hell there are over 100,000 documented in Chicago alone!!
As of this year Obama's Immigration and customs enforcement has released 195,900 convicted criminal aliens in the U.S.
Barack Obamas former chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel who is now mayor of Chicago thinks more gun control is the answer....yeah cause the Disarm is really working in that city..lol
there is absolutely no way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals...it's not even sane to suggest such a thing
Chicago ranks Dead last in federal Gun Prosecution....why do we need new laws when they won't enforce the ones we already have in place!?
all that said nationwide violent crime has ben decreasing for 20 years straight, FBI stats prove that the national murder rate is lower today than it has been in 50 years and that overall violent crime rate is lower than it has been in 40 years
The information you give about Switzerland makes me doubt the conclusions you come to from the information in the rest of the post, and is typical of the way the gun lobby in the U.S. Has framed the issue and given readymade arguments for supporters. I recognize the rhetoric because it includes the argument about the cities with the most murders, the comparisons with other countries, the Nazi Germany canard, and Switzerland.
In fact, Switzerland's army is militia and its male citizens are required to serve and remain active after their service. It is their service rifles that they are issued that they can keep at home, though they are actually encouraged to keep them in the nearest armoury to be retrieved in the case that they are called to defend the nation or to do their refresher courses if they are officers, etc. It has nothing to do with self defense and due to the number of suicides and domestic murders when these rifles are used there is a strong movement to end the laractice of keeping them at home. The last referendum which was about ending the resulted in the status quo but it was fairly close and opinion is steadily changing. No one is allowed to carry guns in public and most handguns are registered and used for sport or are part of collections.
To claim Switzerland has a low crime rate because of high gun ownership is patently false and shows the dishonesty of this argument. It has a low crime rate because the standard of living is high with less inequality than most countries, a strong social safety net and high employment, drug addicts are helped and not criminalised, and more relevant to this thread, we have extremely low incarceration rates as we have relatively low prison sentences compared to most countries, with the focus on rehabilitation and reducing recidivism. Prisoners have a lot of money spent on them to be accompanied during early release and helped to find work, and they have some of the lowest rates of reoffending in the world. Most crimes result in fines and suspends sentences with community care work as sentences.
This addresses the point made in an above post that putting people in prison reduces crime because most criminals reoffend. Of course they reoffend if given sentences where when they come out they cannot easily work (look how hard it is for an ex-con to get work in the U.S.), are not given the tools to re-enter society, and are out in general prison populations with hardened criminals where they can learn the worst things and become brutalized themselves. Institutionalizing young offenders is the worst thing you can do and simply does not happen in Switserland, neither are juveniles tried as adults as is increasingly done in the U.S.
As to past dictatorships disarming their populations it it's an irrelevant and rifldiculous argument more related to the fantasy concept that Americans can defend themselves from a tyrannical government with personal weapons. It is also a false causal correlation, true to style of the rest of your post.
The other countries you compare the U.S. to have serious crime issues that have other causes than the lack of guns in the hands of law abiding citizens, like great inequality, weak governments and corrupt police, high criminal gang activity and narcotics smuggling and lots of related violence, etc.
Your other statistics are often wrong or carefully parsed and make causal correlations that are very hard to support. The arguments also show th Agnew behind them by not bing consistent- you cite Chicago as being an example of a city with high murder rates because of gun ownership restrictions, then you say it is the city with the worst enforced gun laws? Why not make the correlation that seems obvious there? I won't because without more careful research and consideration it would be dishonest.
I can only assume by the content and title that in spite of dropping crime rates some data has been cherry-picked and bundled with the same tired and false arguments honed and supplied by the NRA to support their agenda, and I wouldn't be surprised if they themselves were indirectly behind the article.
The conclusion is also extremely depressing as the answer to crime is always the same- put more guns in circulation and in the hands of citizens and reduce control of their ownership and reduce restrictions on carry and use.
Just like the the argument that more and longer prison sentences are the answer to reducing crime.
Why not address the causes instead and work to improve society and reduce crime that way? Again, follow the money. You are being duped.
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There will always be a tiny minority of people that cannot be rehabilitated and will reoffend, violently or not.
Most can be rehabilitated and few will reoffend if given the often lacking education, means to survive or make a living, and and the help to reinsert themselves in society after a prison sentence. Finding the right balance is difficult and it take time and money, and changing the mindset that prison is for revenge.
The experience of many countries like Switzerland, Norway, Holland, etc, proves this is effective and possible, and is definitely more humane.
basic common sense....if you are a criminal intent of doing harm or taking some one else property for your own gain.....do you knowingly carjack, or steal form someone you know is armed and will resisit!? or do you move on to a softer target?
Maybe not to other criminals, but it sure is a deterrent to the guy that puts to death.
He will NEVER re-offend again.
You posted the exact same long, pro-gun collection of random numbers and speculation (or at least pretty close) in another thread. Several people pointed out inconsistencies and inaccuracies, but you never responded directly to them. Now you're doing it again.
One Drop said: ↑
..snip... It [Switzerland] has a low crime rate because the standard of living is high with less inequality than most countries, a strong social safety net and high employment, drug addicts are helped and not criminalised, and more relevant to this thread, we have extremely low incarceration rates as we have relatively low prison sentences compared to most countries, with the focus on rehabilitation and reducing recidivism. Prisoners have a lot of money spent on them to be accompanied during early release and helped to find work, and they have some of the lowest rates of reoffending in the world. Most crimes result in fines and suspends sentences with community care work as sentences.…
this needs repeating.
..snip... It [Switzerland] has a low crime rate because the standard of living is high with less inequality than most countries, a strong social safety net and high employment, drug addicts are helped and not criminalised, and more relevant to this thread, we have extremely low incarceration rates as we have relatively low prison sentences compared to most countries, with the focus on rehabilitation and reducing recidivism. Prisoners have a lot of money spent on them to be accompanied during early release and helped to find work, and they have some of the lowest rates of reoffending in the world. Most crimes result in fines and suspends sentences with community care work as sentences.…
this needs repeating.
Keeping with the title of this thread, I logged in just to "Like" that post^.
It would have been criminal not to.
It would have been criminal not to.
Criminals will get their weapons whether or not it's legal for them to have them or not. Sure, it'll be harder to get and that might lessen the amount of gun violence, but if everyone is armed, there isn't gonna be much violent crime.
Maybe we should try to help out people in poverty who work full time jobs. That'd probably lessen the crime.
Maybe we should try to help out people in poverty who work full time jobs. That'd probably lessen the crime.
