They Say Crime Is On The Decrease....

[ZenG]

So are the statisticians correct? is there an overall decrease in crime....or only violent crime?

I have not posted any actual stats yet but it won't be hard digging some up.

I'm only going by what I read and am told.

 

[Tbone76]

The number of killers that escape and kill again is far smaller than the number of innocent people killed by the state for doing a crime they didn't commit.

This to me ends any moral dilemma there might be.

I understand that you were responding to another post when you posted this response, but an incarcerated murderer doesn't need to escape in order to kill again. The inmates, correctional officers, and civillian prison workers that get raped, maimed, and murdered every single year in our prisons should be an indicator. We have an obligation to protect these people that live and work inside our prisons, just the same as we do to those who live "outside the walls". A convicted criminal serving his or her sentence has a right to accept rehabilitiation without reasonable fear of harm, regardless of how we personally feel about the particular crimes that got them incarcerated in the first place. The recent debacle at Clinton Correctional Facility in New York also illustrates that, however small the possibility, convicted murderers can (and do) escape incarceration. There are many factors that play into how it's possible to escape from a maximum security prison in the first place (workplace complacency, understaffing, blackmailing, etc.) but the fact remains that is does happen.

I do agree with you that the death penalty is not a deterrent. I also believe that there is a drastic need for major overhauling of our court and prison systems.

 

[Clark Dark]

There exists a prison industrial complex and it is trading on the NYSE. People are getting paid.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Recitivism (sp) among the poor and young means a steady intake of labor to be exploited.

 

[two fingers]

The number of killers that escape and kill again is far smaller than the number of innocent people killed by the state for doing a crime they didn't commit.

This to me ends any moral dilemma there might be.

To be so positive, you must know the exact numbers of both. So, what are they?

EXACTLY how many innocent people have been put to death. And according to whom?

EXACTLY how many people have been killed by escapees. And according to whom?

I'm so glad you are going to be able to clear this up for all of us.

 

[Snakeman1066]

You posted the exact same long, pro-gun collection of random numbers and speculation (or at least pretty close) in another thread. Several people pointed out inconsistencies and inaccuracies, but you never responded directly to them. Now you're doing it again.

suppose I should have been more clear

in this months issue of Americas First Freedom there was an interesting article entitled "Are the bad guys winning?"

the other stats I posted came directly from the United Nations and the F.B.I who track that sort of thing.

the rest Is my own personal thoughts and musings

I didn't come to fight

don't want it to get too political or stray too far from topic (but I believe there exist a direct Correlation between supposed Gun control and violent crime)

For the Record I was born and Raised In Texas
For the Record Ex Military
For the Record avid Hunter
For the Record Card Carrying Lifetime Member of the NRA
For the Record Republican
For the record A Handgun has saved my life and Property on more than one occasion
For the Record you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers

make of it what you will...I said my piece
and I will say no more other than I'm proud to be an American and live in a country where two opposing viewpoints are allowed to freely exist

 

[One Drop]

To be so positive, you must know the exact numbers of both. So, what are they?

EXACTLY how many innocent people have been put to death. And according to whom?

EXACTLY how many people have been killed by escapees. And according to whom?

I'm so glad you are going to be able to clear this up for all of us.

As far as I'm concerned if one innocent person is killed by the state then the death penalty cannot be defended.

It is impossible to know exactly what you are asking. But extrapolate the number of known miscarriages of justice we already know about to the infinitesimal number of victims of escaped murderers and you will have your answer.

 

[One Drop]

suppose I should have been more clear

in this months issue of Americas First Freedom there was an interesting article entitled "Are the bad guys winning?"

the other stats I posted came directly from the United Nations and the F.B.I who track that sort of thing.

the rest Is my own personal thoughts and musings

I didn't come to fight

don't want it to get too political or stray too far from topic (but I believe there exist a direct Correlation between supposed Gun control and violent crime)

For the Record I was born and Raised In Texas
For the Record Ex Military
For the Record avid Hunter
For the Record Card Carrying Lifetime Member of the NRA
For the Record Republican
For the record A Handgun has saved my life and Property on more than one occasion
For the Record you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers

make of it what you will...I said my piece
and I will say no more other than I'm proud to be an American and live in a country where two opposing viewpoints are allowed to freely exist

I'm proud to have lived in many countries where the chance of being shot is close to nil, and where there is almost no gun related violence and no one feels the need to arm themselves to protect their person or their property.

I know which I'd choose and I know which liberties I value over others.

 

[HaphAsSard]

"They say crime is on the decrease..."

Title - both content, rhyme potential and metrics - made me think of a certain song. Sorry for the diversion but c'm on, if this isn't a propos what is?

They say ev’rything can be replaced
Yet ev’ry distance is not near
So I remember ev’ry face
Of ev’ry man who put me here
I see my light come shining
From the west unto the east
Any day now, any day now
I shall be released

They say ev’ry man needs protection
They say ev’ry man must fall
Yet I swear I see my reflection
Some place so high above this wall
I see my light come shining
From the west unto the east
Any day now, any day now
I shall be released

Standing next to me in this lonely crowd
Is a man who swears he’s not to blame
All day long I hear him shout so loud
Crying out that he was framed
I see my light come shining
From the west unto the east
Any day now, any day now
I shall be released

 

[two fingers]

As far as I'm concerned if one innocent person is killed by the state then the death penalty cannot be defended.

It is impossible to know exactly what you are asking. But extrapolate the number of known miscarriages of justice we already know about to the infinitesimal number of victims of escaped murderers and you will have your answer.

Again, you seem very confident. So, sgain, I will ask, what exactly is the "number of known miscarriages if justice" and according to whom?

 

[Immigrant]

To be so positive, you must know the exact numbers of both. So, what are they?

EXACTLY how many innocent people have been put to death. And according to whom?

EXACTLY how many people have been killed by escapees. And according to whom?

I'm so glad you are going to be able to clear this up for all of us.

Again, you seem very confident. So, sgain, I will ask, what exactly is the "number of known miscarriages if justice" and according to whom?

I apologize in advance if this is way off base. I generally don't post during the first hour of waking, but the way those questions are being asked is nothing short of snide and condescending. When you follow up each question with "according to whom", you're automatically calling ANY source provided into question. In this case, since it's nearly obvious you will not agree with whatever findings are provided, it leaves little incentive for One Drop or anyone to provide links. Links, that if you were truly interested in learning the answers to your question, you would find easily and then, not believe them.

So here's a few:

Exonorees: Invalid Link Removed

A handful that were executed that were possibly innocent: Invalid Link Removed

More interesting reading: US death row study: 4% of defendants sentenced to die are innocent | World news | The Guardian

The rest of the research you can do easily.

When One Drop said:

As far as I'm concerned if one innocent person is killed by the state then the death penalty cannot be defended.

That really can't be argued with.

Not referring to you TF, but I'm becoming less surprised by the instances of someone being wrapped up in a flag or a religion, standing for half of those values, yet disregarding the rest. Half a hypocrite is still a hypocrite.

 

[two fingers]

I apologize in advance if this is way off base. I generally don't post during the first hour of waking, but the way those questions are being asked is nothing short of snide and condescending. When you follow up each question with "according to whom", you're automatically calling ANY source provided into question. In this case, since it's nearly obvious you will not agree with whatever findings are provided, it leaves little incentive for One Drop or anyone to provide links. Links, that if you were truly interested in learning the answers to your question, you would find easily and then, not believe them.

So here's a few:

Exonorees: Invalid Link Removed

A handful that were executed that were possibly innocent: Invalid Link Removed

More interesting reading: US death row study: 4% of defendants sentenced to die are innocent | World news | The Guardian

The rest of the research you can do easily.

When One Drop said:



That really can't be argued with.

Not referring to you TF, but I'm becoming less surprised by the instances of someone being wrapped up in a flag or a religion, standing for half of those values, yet disregarding the rest. Half a hypocrite is still a hypocrite.

Very well thought out post (especially for the first waking hour).

I never stated that I think the death penalty is the perfect answer. I never even stated that I wasn't open to other ideas.

Also, I would argue that the instances of putting innocents to death is bound to be dropping to almost nothing due to growth in technology and the appeals process. Sure, up until the early 2000s some districts had to rely on blood type and testimony. That is almost never the case anyore.

Forensics knowledge has grown exponentially in the last couple decades. Speaking of half hypocrites, it's funny to me how many will argue for global warming and base their argument on not-yet-perfected science that had gotten more wrong than right in the past few decades. Yet the same person will argue against the death penalty due to not-yet-perfected science. Balance that out for me.

So, the risk of killing one innocent person over improper conclusions is not worth taking. But changing our entire economy here in the states and risking getting driven into the ground by countries "not as enlightened as we are" is?

Hypocracy.... It's a funny thing, isn't it?

Oh, and, good morning. I have two young children. The luxury of waking after dark left me several years ago. What does it feel like?

 

[Immigrant]

Good morning back to you.

It was 5:30 am and pretty dark here when I posted that. I haven't gotten up to daylight in 40 years unless you're counting naps.

Time zones are stupid like that.

 

[Richland123]

There was another armed robbery Friday morning at a store a few block from my mother's home. There was also a drug deal related murder last weekend; but, thankfully, the three guys responsible were all caught. This is happening often now in a city that is not a large population center.

 

[fdeck]

...if everyone is armed, there isn't gonna be much violent crime.

In my view, that's as utopian as "if everybody obeys the law, there won't be much violent crime." That's because "everyone is armed" to a level required to actually deter criminals, cannot be achieved.

In my view, people already have access to as many guns as they want. Our society is already as fully armed as it will ever be. At this point you can't effectively increase the number of people are capable and willing to defend themselves effectively with guns. Those people are already armed. The criminals, who are more familiar with violence than the rest of us, know this.

 

[Creede]

In my view, that's as utopian as "if everybody obeys the law, there won't be much violent crime." That's because "everyone is armed" to a level required to actually deter criminals, cannot be achieved.

In my view, people already have access to as many guns as they want. Our society is already as fully armed as it will ever be. At this point you can't effectively increase the number of people are capable and willing to defend themselves effectively with guns. Those people are already armed. The criminals, who are more familiar with violence than the rest of us, know this.

It's a measure of defense. If everyone is issued a weapon, rather than having to pay for it, there would be a drop in violent crime. Yes, it is utopian(ish), but if done well it could work.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

It's a measure of defense. If everyone is issued a weapon, rather than having to pay for it, there would be a drop in violent crime. Yes, it is utopian(ish), but if done well it could work.

Not everyone wants to carry/own a gun though.

 

[fdeck]

It's a measure of defense. If everyone is issued a weapon, rather than having to pay for it, there would be a drop in violent crime. Yes, it is utopian(ish), but if done well it could work.

I don't believe it. "If done well it could work" is tautological. Everything works when it works.

I have no idea what guns cost, but if people can afford a big screen TV, an iPhone, and any kind of new car, then they could afford a gun if it were a priority -- whether the money came out of their pockets or their taxes. If it isn't a priority for them to own a gun, then they also won't make it a priority to maintain constant readiness to defend themselves. My guess is that maybe 1 in 10000 gun owners is prepared in that way, not enough to deter criminals, or enough to justify the elevated rate of suicides and accidents. What would you do, search people and fine them if they aren't carrying a gun?

 

[Creede]

Not everyone wants to carry/own a gun though.

That wpuld be their own fault. We shouldn't outright ban something because some people don't want to have said thing.

I don't believe it. "If done well it could work" is tautological. Everything works when it works.

I have no idea what guns cost, but if people can afford a big screen TV, an iPhone, and any kind of new car, then they could afford a gun if it were a priority -- whether the money came out of their pockets or their taxes. If it isn't a priority for them to own a gun, then they also won't make it a priority to maintain constant readiness to defend themselves. My guess is that maybe 1 in 10000 gun owners is prepared in that way, not enough to deter criminals, or enough to justify the elevated rate of suicides and accidents. What would you do, search people and fine them if they aren't carrying a gun?

Crime is most prevelant in poverty-stricken areas, where the vast majority of people are relying on the government for survival. I don't expect people with so little money be able to afford a weapon, so that's why we should issue them to people. That way we can imcrease the safety of the innocent without taking away their constitutional right to bear arms. (We are talking about the US, right?)

 

[GregC]

Everyone was free to openly carry in parts of the US in the late 1800s. It was so peaceful they called it the Mild West.

 

[Creede]

If guns were banned, only criminals would have guns. How is that better than everyone having guns?