• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Things drummers need to understand

I went to the studio one time with a band to record one song. The song started with a solo bass line, but surprise! I found out on day 1 that our drummer could not play to a click track. Hell, he couldn't play to me playing to the click track. That was interesting the next day when I had to plug in, that's for sure.

I saw this same guy over the summer backing an acoustic singer. Every song started out with the singer starting off and that drummer would just kind of jump in whenever. I swear...drummers find a way to get the gig irregardless. I think a lot of them would simply guffaw at this thread. :unsure:

I can relate to that, but man that's not a word :D
 
My drummer has great technical skills and does a great job in the studio, but get him out on a live gig and he puts his head down, never looks up (let alone listens to what the other guys are doing) plays whatever the heck he wants (which is usually a lot more than what's needed), plays all over me, the guitar player (hell, everyone on stage) and has a great time showing off and getting into himself. He plays as loud as humanly possible at all times (no dynamics), leaves no room for the song to breath, loves to play an open hi-hat or on the bell 99% of the time (because they are the loudest) and basically has no respect for anyone else's sonic space. He is truly caveman-like in his approach to music. But guess what? After each gig while we are fuming about his playing and complaining, half the people in the audience are coming up to him and telling him how awesome he is. We tell him that he overplays and that he's too loud, but who do you think he listens to. That's right. The dufus in the audience telling him that he sound just like Bonham. Why don't we get another drummer? Because with all of his faults, he's way better than anyone else around. He ain't perfect by a long shot, but he's all we've got.
 
Rock drummers

Hitting too hard!
Eliminates room for dynamics - drummer starts (and stays) at peak volume, so when the intensity of a song should rise the only thing left to do is play busier parts, more fills, smashing cymbals. So the dynamic range only goes between playing too loud and overplaying.
I rarely meet drummers who save the hard hits for those few sweet moments when a song or set should peak. Some blame this on the regular use of a PA system; killing dynamics. I understand there was a time when you never heard the kick drum above all else in a mix.

Fills every four bars....
Talk about killing momentum - I think that's rock drummer 101 now. Beat the snot out of your kick and snare, and play a fill every four bars.

Bitter...yep
You hit the nail on the head. Our drummer tries to play the "Immigrant Song" kick pattern on every tune we play and insists on playing fills every 4 bars. He claims to be a big Bonham fan but for some reason never plays as simple or solid as Bonham did on most LZ stuff but tries to "Moby Dick" a song to death.
 
  • Like
Reactions: squidtastic
it seems that drums are the hardest instrument to play on-
very few go from being noisemakers to musical IMO
if I were one, I would take great pains to making sure that when I played, I was pleasing to the ears and smooth in execution, not too loud with dynamics. I would err on the side of economy and leave space.
to me, when I listen to a musician (or myself), I like it when the musician nearly disappears in the mix-nothing that player does seems out of place or annoying. that might be the inner-studio bassist inside me talking but I like that approach.
it seems there is a big disconnect in drumworld-
good jazz drummers seem to get it while the average rock guy doesn't.

I have played with very few drummers in 30 years that I thought were good and very few I thought were great; it seems like there are a handful that have great qualities but aren't the total package.
its been such a source of frustration for me that I could easily walk away from ever playing live again.
 
I play with two bands and two VERY different drummers. My main band, Chaometry, has an incredible drummer (best I've ever played with - nails Portnoy in DT, we do a lot of Liquid Tension, he plays ALL of Transatlantic, all of Rush, entire CATALOGS of this stuff, his masters is in music and theory) who plays from a ROCK background, where the hi hat, kick and snare, DRIVE the best by playing right on or very slightly AHEAD of the beat. As a bassist I match the tempo that he sets, lock in and go. In my other band, a Porcupine Tree homage called Cloud Zero, the drummer is from a jazz background, which means he often plays slightly, very very very slightly behind the beat with the high hat, kick and snare, giving it a more loose and relaxed feel. Problem is, Gavin Harrison plays with a rock (on top of or ahead of the beat) feel - not a jazz feel. (Yes, I'm overgeneralizing a bit - but not much).

My main band (Chaometry) have talked about the difference before, but the guitarist didn't get what I meant. To me, it's the difference between Bill Bruford and Alan White. Bruford is a jazz drummer, fundamentally, and White is a rock drummer. I can't imagine Bruford playing on "Drama." The guitarist still didn't get it, so I told him to imagine Bill Bruford playing "Whole Lotta Love" for Led Zep II. He GOT that. So while the drummer in the Porcupine Tree homage plays the parts, they feel, due to jazz over their rock underpinnings, a bit "sluggish," so I start really trying to compensate with my bass playing, being VERY aggressive, ahead of the beat, punching every note as hard as hell and as clear so the percussive force would be felt, leaving it up to me to DRIVE the song along. I got through an hour and a half show last weekend, but just BARELY. I'd much rather him drive the song, and me to accompany him, rather than feel like I have to pull him and the whole band - along.

It makes me crazy. I can't expect him to change his feel completely, and he does play the stuff correctly - double kick triplets are all there, cymbal fun is everywhere, but it just... feeelsss... a... bit.... slow.... My complaint would be that it's the wrong feel for much of it, but that's a pretty big complaint. I've mentioned it before in rehearsals (like when playing "Halo" - it feels slooooowwww), but I don't see much change there - and I don't know if anyone who is not in a rhythm section would scarcely notice, as long as we all ended on the same note. The time differences I'm talking here are extremely small - not playing way ahead of the beat or way behind the beat - just enough to notice if you listen closely and knew what you were listening to in relation to the beat and feel, which as musicians, we would be doing (I guess).

About the earlier posts, I have no problems with a hard-hitting drummer. My Chaometry drummer hits VERY hard, but then so does Peart. I prefer it, overall, to a drummer who hits the snare like he's apologizing as he hits it. Either hit the damned thing or DON'T hit the damned thing. I want to hear confidence in the drummer's playing, power and passion in playing, not politeness, political correctness with doilies and prune juice. I want that person to OWN the rhythm, OWN the time, OWN the countdowns, OWN the final crescendos. I want to look at them and know that they know EXACTLY where we should be and to put us there - on that SPOT, for that duration. It's like a computer synching to a single time source so that there is no confusion as to "When are we?"

This is due in large part to the genre's I play (prog and prog metal tend to be HIGHLY structured with exact timing, unusual time signatures, stops, mutes and other things that sound like sh#$ when done sloppily, and there is very little improvisation or "jam band" stuff - although that's not outside of prog's purview by any means).

I have NO problem with a very busy drummer. I want to hear what they are thinking of rhythmically, to see if, in their experimentation, we might hit on something really interesting. It happens. Often our drummer will do something really cool, like for instance play a couple of small crashes that suggest to me, "What if I pop a harmonic over that in fourths?" So we stop and try it. Obviously the drummer has to be able to play a straight beat in 4/4 time and a half note kick, but don't put me to sleep, don't bore me, don't make me think "Gee, haven't I heard that 300 times by now?" Wow me. Surprise me. Mix it up. Have fun. Show your stuff.

Again, prog and prog metal work well with this. My complaint isn't the same as many - bring ON the hard hitting, passionate, aggressive, fearlessly unapologetic, time-keeping drummers. Let me hear their stuff - let them get as busy as they want and take a sad song, and make it better. Hit the damned drums. Hit the damned cymbals. Kickout the double triplets as they beat me in the chest and make me answer back with aggression and punch. Just don't BORE me. You're in COMPLETE control of the timing of everything. Every break. Every intro. Every sustain. Every moment by moment tempo or time change (and there are many - one song we play has 106 time changes in less than 6 minutes). Everything. If it's wrong - it's YOUR fault. But it's rarely wrong, because if a drummer can't keep time, they should probably not be playing an instrument - certainly not drums.

That's how I see it, anyways.
 
Last edited:
Ahhh Fripp.

I've been a Crim fan, with Fripp, the musician, at the core of my Crimsophelia. However, my favorite eras are those from Court up to Discipline. I find it kinda funny for Fripp to have said this of Bill, in consideration of how intensely Michael Giles, Andy McCulloch and Ian Wallace, all tended to play - although I enjoy most every bit of it.

With the advent of Bruford and Jamie Muir, those Lark's Tongues rhythmic textures do get quite thick, but mostly due to the two of them playing. I find Bill alone to be some what balanced in his use of note and space, albeit rhythmically complex in context of the rest of the music. (His drums on Close To The Edge seem a case in point - some very inventive yet simple playing in contrast to the rest of the music.)

Yet with Fripp gearing toward 2 drummers so much, as well as the whole double-trio thing + soundscapes... all at the same time - his statements almost seem oxymoronic, don't they? Although I do undertand everything he says from his teacher point of view.

I suppose it depends on the era in which he made the list re: Bill.

As for the original post topic - I like drummers who are musicians - not just drummers as exclusive, genre pointed instrumentalists - though I like those, too for style specific gigs.

But for personal music, I like players with a sense of scope, stylistically, historically, musically - who like diversity, are happy to play super simple (like Bruford's slit drum on "The Sheltering Sky") to mayhem - like Keith Moon - who seems to very much play off of the guitar and the drums and the vocals and the voices in his head :)

But flexibility is key, along with a confidence that is both able to follow and lead, but in the context of listening and paying attention to all of the music.

I've worked with drummers where playing softly means slow down to them, (Bruford is a master of quiet intensity). And yet with others where, if they can't hear well or distinguish what the music is doing, that they feel it is their job to drive it into control - and sometimes wrongly so. If you can't hear what the rest of the band is doing - play quieter, look, listen and follow, unless someone gives you the signal to go for it.

But much of this all depends on the genre of music. I like music with an "orchestral" character, not big, just using instruments for the sake of color and illustrating the core emotion and intent of the story - whatever that takes from nothing to everything. And it doesn't take a big drum kit to do that, just an inventive musician who speaks the language as a drummer.

I find that list most entertaining, since Robert Fripp is a busy player himself.
 
Last two drummers I played with were very good. My complaint was that they wore their pajama pants to the gigs. You obviously couldn't see the pants while they were playing but for load in/out and breaks they looked like clowns, and by extension we looked like clowns. They both were very adamant about their pajama pants. We were playing dive bars anyway so we didn't argue about it much, but that look is to much.
So drummers- wear pants, shorts, slacks or corduroys, but no pajama pants.
 
I just had to post this here:


Taken from the writings of Robert Fripp:

Bill is really getting to me, so I'm trying to understand how he works.

1. He's a very busy player, and doesn't enjoy playing sparsely;
2. His parts have lots of fills and major changes of textures;
3. His fills are dramatic; i.e., they shock.

So I've been drawing up the following suggestions:

1. Any existing solution to a problem is the wrong one: absolutum, obsoletum;
2. If you have an idea, don't play it;
3. When a change in the music needs emphasis, don't play it: the change in the music is emphasis enough;
4. Don't phrase with any other member of the band unless it's in the part;
5. Phrasing in the part should include no more than two people;
6. If the tension in the music needs emphasising, don't. The tension is there because of what you're playing, not what you're about to play;
7. If you really have to change your part to build tension, don't add -- leave out;
8. The maximum tension you can add is by stopping completely;
9. If there is space for a fill which is demanded by the music, don't play it: there are three other people who would like to use the opportunity;
10. If the part you're playing is boring, stop listening with your head;
11. If this still bores you, listen to the interaction between all the parts;
12. If this still bores you, stop playing and wait until you are no longer bored;
13. Do not be dramatic;
14. Do not be afraid to repeat yourself;
15. Do not be afraid to take your time.

Fripp's brilliant "oblique strategies" (he has a few hundred catalogued) are among the best tools anybody ever came up with for getting out of a rut or thinking outside the box.
 
I find that list most entertaining, since Robert Fripp is a busy player himself.

No question Robert has his "dense" moments. As, with the music from "Discipline" and beyond, he once said "repetition is change" - hence his relentless figures on the opening of "Frame By Frame" morphing through modulation and interaction with and against Belew. He also said of his soundscapes, something to the effect of "... it's the best way to make the most sound with one guitar...", and he certainly has explored that with more and more density since he and Eno developed Frippertronics.

That said, in his younger days, on songs like Formentera Lady on "Islands", his restraint and space is quite lovely, or his sticking to one note for umpteen bars in the later instrumental section of "Starless", then shifting to another for a long time is a long steel rail of minimalism.

In his history, he's often been quite delicate, holding off on playing altogether from time to time. And in consideration of Bill Bruford, how he (Bill) was given a writing credit by Fripp on Starless and Bible Black's song "Trio" because he chose to not play at all during the improvisation and recording of that track, just bass, violin, and Fripp on Mellotron flutes. So he does or has practiced this philosophy, as well as acknowledging it with reward. (I even remember seeing The League of Crafty Guitars - 12 + Fripp, where the novices sat without playing for most of the concert while in Fripp's proper posture to play; as well as where a player would get 1 note to add to the whole at the appointed time throughout a piece.)

So, agreed that the man and the views he expresses can seem double-minded. I think he retains the list as something he developed in the wake of his younger days, and holds as a philosophical ideal, yet he takes creative liberty in breaking his own rules, while probably wanting to wield his prevailing wisdom as he wishes, concerning how KC ("his" band) works, as well as how he teaches.

Ha! Flaky artîsts
 
  • Like
Reactions: Atshen
About the only thing I would say a drummer needs to understand is that playing drums is fundamentally a supporting role in the larger context of a band. As is playing bass. And though we both will get our relatively brief moments in the spotlight to demonstrate our genius and talent during the show, our main function is to make it all work. Which means we often need to hang back and build the platform and "hold the center" for the "front" (i.e. vocals, guitars, keys, etc.) to do what they should be doing.

If that doesn't work for you (and you're the drummer) you have what I see as two basic options: (1) Also be a singer. It's not common to combine drumming and lead vocals. But it's been done successfully by others. - OR - (2) Admit that drums just don't give you that ego boost you crave, and switch to another instrument. Ideally something you can play while standing so you can prance around on stage and "work the crowd" as the saying goes.

I won't rehash the usual complaints about volume or overplaying beyond saying, as a drummer, you need to know how to play your instrument. That's a given. If you don't- or "don't really" - you'll need to fix that pronto. And you already know if you do. (Even if you hate to admit it even privately to yourself. )

But the hardest thing you'll need to learn if you're a drummer is to BE THE DRUMMER. Not the frontman. Not the 'babe magnet.' Not the clown in the band who's never at a loss for a 'witty' comment or quick comeback. Not the angry unrecognized genius who's gonna someday show these losers what an incredible and underutilized asset they have in this joke of a band. Not the guy who channels Keith Moon - even when the band is playing a ballad...

Just be the drummer. As in: Just the drummer. With all that short and simple sentence implies.
 
Last edited: