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Things drummers need to understand

#41
I realize that my two bits goes directly contrary to conventional wisdom...but I'm going to go there - again - anyway: the drummer provides the rhythmic foundation to the music, but that doesn't necessarily mean "being the timekeeper". Not the same thing.

In truth, in any performing ensemble, every player shares in the responsibility to "keep" the time - because time is actually a consensus kind of thing - not something to be delegated to just one person. Besides enhancing the musicianship of each player, this approach has the benefit of creating multiple time redundancies - so that it becomes much more difficult for any one player (i.e. the drummer) to mess up the entire band - by missing a cue, by flubbing an entrance, by failing to to get around on a fill in time for the next downbeat, whatever.

By taking this approach, i.e. knowing the meter and tempo, independently of the drummer, I have on numerous occasions been able to help avert a train wreck. If the drummer effs up, I'm right there, not missing a beat. It works even better if every player is able to maintain this same degree of rhythmic awareness, rhythmic sensitivity and rhythmic independence.

I don't expect to change very many minds on this matter. But this is one on which I'm 100% certain that I'm correct. :eyebrow:

MM
 
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#42
I m actually a drummer. Been playing since i was 12. Bass only came about 1,5 years ago.
That s why i use a Roland kit. Edrums are absolutely the way to go. I can turn the volume down and hit the heck out of them, and the sound guy controls the WHOLE band, incl the drummer, who they normally have very little control over. The percussive attack of acoustic drums is hectic, that s where the "DIN" comes from. So u need to be a very senstive drummer to keep that under control. I used to use Regal Rip Silhouette sticks - they were like pencils! But it meant i could hit harder. Another prob with acoustic kits is that most cymbals need to be hit with a certain amount of force to crash properly. - More noise.
Edrums have a stunning studio quality sound. For decades i tried in vain to get my acoustics to sound like the drums on records and cd s that i heard.
U cant.
Those drums have been recorded under the best possible circumstances.
But if i can also have a bit of a gripe - a couple of musicians i play with also speed up, and i desperately try to hold the band back, but they dont listen, they re all toooooo busy listening to themselves, then the audience think it s me slowing down. And they def look offended when u tell them. And yes, i ve also been guilty of overplaying, often it s becoz u hear muso s discusing how amazing a certain drummer is, so not to be outdone, u start being flashy too. We went to a church meeting the other nite at a diff church (not ours) and the drummer made a huge noise. Result: He impressed all our chuch members and they all came to me all excited and said ....Wow that drummers amazing! Truth: He s not at all amazing. Technically, the stuff he did i was doing when i was 14 years old, but he made a big noise especially with his roto toms.
Now if i was immature about it, i d go to our future services, and turn my drums up and make a huge noise to try and impress everyone! What for, stoke my ego?
Been there done that.
Seen that kind of thing many times, people being impressed by noisy drummers.
Also edrums take up half the space on the stage. They re just awesome.
 
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#43
DreadyDiggs said:
My singer and I had a 3.5 hour conversation the other night. I'm the newest recruited member, but he ecstatic about having me because I bring more to the table than just playing my instrument.

One thing we talked about was his issues with our drummer. I don't have any issues of my own for now, but I can understand them so I'll list them.

1.) Shows are not constant. Sometimes he'll overplay, sometimes he won't. The amount of beautiful women in the audience tend to determine if he overplays or not.

2.) Sets tempos so fast that singer (who is also playing keys) can't do both to full effect. We actually have omitted one song from the set cause drummy won't play it slower.

Any other issues come from both guys being very passionate about the music. Here's drummy doing his thing at our last show. If he played like this every song singer would have no complaints, but sadly the very next song included a lot of forced fills, like he was trying stuff out. Sounded good to me in the moment, but during playback it was a bit much.

Click to expand...

I like the beautiful women part - i m also guilty of that when i m playing drums!
 
#44
Ianhin said:
I m actually a drummer. Been playing since i was 12. Bass only came about 1,5 years ago.
That s why i use a Roland kit. Edrums are absolutely the way to go. I can turn the volume down and hit the heck out of them, and the sound guy controls the WHOLE band, incl the drummer, who they normally have very little control over. The percussive attack of acoustic drums is hectic, that s where the "DIN" comes from. So u need to be a very senstive drummer to keep that under control. I used to use Regal Rip Silhouette sticks - they were like pencils! But it meant i could hit harder. Another prob with acoustic kits is that most cymbals need to be hit with a certain amount of force to crash properly. - More noise.
Edrums have a stunning studio quality sound. For decades i tried in vain to get my acoustics to sound like the drums on records and cd s that i heard.
U cant.
Those drums have been recorded under the best possible circumstances.
But if i can also have a bit of a gripe - a couple of musicians i play with also speed up, and i desperately try to hold the band back, but they dont listen, they re all toooooo busy listening to themselves, then the audience think it s me slowing down. And they def look offended when u tell them. And yes, i ve also been guilty of overplaying, often it s becoz u hear muso s discusing how amazing a certain drummer is, so not to be outdone, u start being flashy too. We went to a church meeting the other nite at a diff church (not ours) and the drummer made a huge noise. Result: He impressed all our chuch members and they all came to me all excited and said ....Wow that drummers amazing! Truth: He s not at all amazing. Technically, the stuff he did i was doing when i was 14 years old, but he made a big noise especially with his roto toms.
Now if i was immature about it, i d go to our future services, and turn my drums up and make a huge noise to try and impress everyone! What for, stoke my ego?
Been there done that.
Seen that kind of thing many times, people being impressed by noisy drummers.
Also edrums take up half the space on the stage. They re just awesome.
Click to expand...
if drummers cannot control their dynamics, I don't see any other way.
e drums takes away their control and puts in perhaps in the hands of someone who can wield it properly.
also lends for a nice IEM mix too eliminating a good portion of stage volume.
 
#45
joebar said:
if drummers cannot control their dynamics, I don't see any other way.
e drums takes away their control and puts in perhaps in the hands of someone who can wield it properly.
also lends for a nice IEM mix too eliminating a good portion of stage volume.
Click to expand...
U actually CAN still control ur own volume on the stage. I use a Wharfedale Pro Titan Active 15" as a monitor. It s about 430 watts. So i can turn it up if i need to - the sound guy controls the pa.
 
#47
One thing that really irritates me is when drummers bring their iPods and headphones onstage and at the end of a song they have to listen to the beginning of the next song to know how it starts. I've been in two bands where the drummers did this and I feel that they should know the material well enough, be it originals or covers, to know how a song starts especially if they are counting it off (which is most of the time). If we only have a 45 minute set it wastes time and it also can ruin the 'momentum' of a set. I seriously wanted to grab their iPods and throw them into the audience.
 
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#48
JimmyM said:
I disagree about the hitting too hard. Some types of music require it.
Click to expand...

I love a hard-hitting drummer. I'd be interested to hear an actual drummer weigh in on this, but my impression is that whether hard-hitting sounds "good" or "bad" is down to technique.
A good hard-hitter is akin to someone with a good punch -- they have a particular way of striking "through" and "beyond" the target. It is a controlled force (cf. "Love under will").
 
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#49
Charlie Watts is famous not only for being a very classy perfectionist big band jazz drummer, but for punching Stones singer Mick Jagger in the face after Jagger referred to Watts as "My drummer..."...Watts told him, "I'm not 'your drummer'...you are MY SINGER."..Watts dressed in a suit before going to Jagger's hotel room to punch him...

Charlie knows what all great drummers should know: that they are the alpha and omega of the band (apologies, bassists).
 
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#50
Mystic Michael said:
I realize that my two bits goes directly contrary to conventional wisdom...but I'm going to go there - again - anyway: the drummer provides the rhythmic foundation to the music, but that doesn't necessarily mean "being the timekeeper". Not the same thing.

In truth, in any performing ensemble, every player shares in the responsibility to "keep" the time - because time is actually a consensus kind of thing - not something to be delegated to just one person. Besides enhancing the musicianship of each player, this approach has the benefit of creating multiple time redundancies - so that it becomes much more difficult for any one player (i.e. the drummer) to mess up the entire band - by missing a cue, by flubbing an entrance, by failing to to get around on a fill in time for the next downbeat, whatever.

By taking this approach, i.e. knowing the meter and tempo, independently of the drummer, I have on numerous occasions been able to help avert a train wreck. If the drummer effs up, I'm right there, not missing a beat. It works even better if every player is able to maintain this same degree of rhythmic awareness, rhythmic sensitivity and rhythmic independence.

I don't expect to change very many minds on this matter. But this is one on which I'm 100% certain that I'm correct. :eyebrow:

MM
Click to expand...
You absolutely are correct. I knew a guitarist way back who was really good at everything but keeping time, and said it was OK because the drummer was supposed to do it. Then we played "Eye Of The Tiger" and I had to start it because he couldn't play 16th notes holding a C note to save his life. Nice guy, could sing, and very talented otherwise, but come on! Glad when that band broke up and I never had to play "Eye Of The Tiger" again.
 
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#52
ronlitz said:
Like many others, I am frustrated by the same 3 or 4 issues that 90% of drummers seem to have. Here are my top two complaints - what are yours? What the heck can we as a community do about this? If we act in unison, and consistently say the same things repeatedly to the "problem" drummers, will they start to get the message? Probably wishful thinking - but I can dream, can't I?

#1: You are too loud. Stop hitting so hard.



#2: You are overplaying. Hit things less often.

Click to expand...

Those are my top two complaints as well. I just fired our drummer in large part because of those issues. And wouldn't ya know it, I'm on a different gig last week, and the drummer for that group is an even worse perpetrator of both issues. It was supposed to be groove music (funk, soul), but the guy barely played a back beat for more than a measure. Ugh.
 
#55
...this is all assuming that the drummer can even be found. I'm happy if they make it by the 3rd song.

My friends and I have been developing an X-Y graph over the years and have come to this -

The level of Funkiness has a reverse correlation with Integrity.
In other words, the funkier the drummer, the less reliability on all fronts.

Here are the traits/symptoms of the two extremes (from my experience at least):


Super Funky Drummer -
  • No one's ever positive where they are exactly
  • Home address can never be confirmed past someone's couch
  • Their actual drum set is a bit elusive
  • Probably have to supply their sticks as well
  • Reliable transportation? Depends on who's available to give them a ride
  • Aromas of cologne and pot
  • Patriarch - an unconfirmed amount of illegitimate children scattered along past tour routes.
  • Disappears on breaks and after the gig
  • No where to be found for rehearsal unless it's paid
  • Monthly phone number changes
  • Can't pay anyone back, but has beautiful i-phone
  • Stank face all night while playing
  • Killin'
Very NOT-Funky Drummer -
  • Solid Family life, at least 3 kids
  • First one to show up, even before the janitor
  • Brings there own 18 piece bubinga/maple kit
  • Supplies the sound system for the band
  • Hosts rehearsals at their house along with family dinner
  • Prints out music for everyone else that uses it
  • Collects expensive vintage instruments they will never play and lends them to the band
  • Just might co-sign a house for you
  • Sits on the kit until the gig begins
  • Toyota Sienna
  • Hawaiian Shirt/Khakis when June comes around
  • Hot rods
  • Uses the chimes
  • One role...all night
  • Smiles when they play
  • Awful...but you can't tell them because they are so dang nice!
 
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#57
moody said:
I just had to post this here:
Taken from the writings of Robert Fripp
Click to expand...

Ahhh Fripp.

I've been a Crim fan, with Fripp, the musician, at the core of my Crimsophelia. However, my favorite eras are those from Court up to Discipline. I find it kinda funny for Fripp to have said this of Bill, in consideration of how intensely Michael Giles, Andy McCulloch and Ian Wallace, all tended to play - although I enjoy most every bit of it.

With the advent of Bruford and Jamie Muir, those Lark's Tongues rhythmic textures do get quite thick, but mostly due to the two of them playing. I find Bill alone to be some what balanced in his use of note and space, albeit rhythmically complex in context of the rest of the music. (His drums on Close To The Edge seem a case in point - some very inventive yet simple playing in contrast to the rest of the music.)

Yet with Fripp gearing toward 2 drummers so much, as well as the whole double-trio thing + soundscapes... all at the same time - his statements almost seem oxymoronic, don't they? Although I do undertand everything he says from his teacher point of view.

I suppose it depends on the era in which he made the list re: Bill.

As for the original post topic - I like drummers who are musicians - not just drummers as exclusive, genre pointed instrumentalists - though I like those, too for style specific gigs.

But for personal music, I like players with a sense of scope, stylistically, historically, musically - who like diversity, are happy to play super simple (like Bruford's slit drum on "The Sheltering Sky") to mayhem - like Keith Moon - who seems to very much play off of the guitar and the drums and the vocals and the voices in his head :-)

But flexibility is key, along with a confidence that is both able to follow and lead, but in the context of listening and paying attention to all of the music.

I've worked with drummers where playing softly means slow down to them, (Bruford is a master of quiet intensity). And yet with others where, if they can't hear well or distinguish what the music is doing, that they feel it is their job to drive it into control - and sometimes wrongly so. If you can't hear what the rest of the band is doing - play quieter, look, listen and follow, unless someone gives you the signal to go for it.

But much of this all depends on the genre of music. I like music with an "orchestral" character, not big, just using instruments for the sake of color and illustrating the core emotion and intent of the story - whatever that takes from nothing to everything. And it doesn't take a big drum kit to do that, just an inventive musician who speaks the language as a drummer.
 
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#59
I've had the opportunity to play with 2 awesome drummers.....but the misfortune to play with too many bad ones. That's why we don't have a drummer in our current band....and we can hear all the parts, vocals are above everything else, timing is not an issue and we are busier than ever.
 
#60
MaxJJK said:
True that. Metal breaks a lot of rules of "conventional" music, but I guess that's what I dig about it. And yeah, Vinnie Paul may be a rock solid drummer, but when it comes to metal I much prefer drummers like George Kollias.

Anyway, "overplaying" by most people's standards can totally add to music when the dude actually knows what he's doing. For example: The Who's rhythm section. The problem is that most drummers don't have the sense of how to use that; they aren't good enough to back up how fast they can play.
Click to expand...

Right. But Keith sounded the way he did because he _didn't_ know what he was doing. He was just bashing away. Going by feel. And it was great. Being about to "use that" is a rare and special talent that can make bands like the Who great. And then suck when that element is gone.
 

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