• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Things drummers need to understand

#63
dalahorse said:
I agree with both the OPs thought. Too loud and too busy. However, both videos are horrible examples.

The first guy is using soooooo much arm and core muscle energy to hold back. And, while he talks about being solid and keeping perfect time loud or quiet (and is using a click!), his time and feel is all over the place within the non-existent pocket. His technique is dreadful. He should take a lesson on how to hold drumsticks.

The second guy clearly tries to use metal drumming backing The Beatles to demonstrate simple vs busy playing. We all get the point. However, the example is totally extreme. I'd like him in a Beatles style rock band as much as I would like Ringo in a metal band. Wrong guy, wrong job. Both styles are valid within their own contexts.

Anyway, to reiterate...

1: Have the ability to play softer.
2: Be able to reduce or expand complexity to fit the piece.

I'll add...

3: The click is a tool, not a sign of weakness. ALL MUSICIANS (not just the drummer) can keep better time with practice against a solid reference.
4: Know where the 1 is, always. If the fill is going to throw you off, don't play it. Ask your instructor for help before the next rehearsal.
5: More than anyone else in the band, lock in with the bass instrument. Drums and bass can get establish groove without the need for any other instrument.

However...

6: Play the set of drums you are comfortable with. If it's large, that's great. If it's a four piece, that's great too. The drummer doesn't get to tell the pianist to play a 49 mini-key synth and leave the big ol' 88 weighted key digital piano at home. (OMG - Who needs 88 keys?!?!) If the bassist with 5+ strings gets after you about the size of your kit, remind them that Jaco only needed four. And Jaco's bass was clearly the best bass for metal, too. And frets are just speed bumps. Yes - #6 is clearly meant to be funny. But seriously - don't tell the drummer what kind of kit to play.
Click to expand...
The "first guy" seems to have his kit set up in a small apartment and had to learn to play quietly or risk being evicted. He had a valid point on volume versus power. A perfect example of powerful drummers that don't use excessive volume are Jim Capaldi (listen to Empty Pages from the John Barleycorn album) and Harvey Mason on the first Headhunters album. It's clear that the "second guy" was in some sort of clinic (maybe a school) fielding questions from students. In this scenario he was right to use an exaggerated example to prove his point.
 
#64
Another boring anecdote, but it fits the topic at hand. Years ago (as all of these anecdotes are) we were forming a band and auditioned every well known, talented drummer we could find. After rejecting them all because of volume and/or overkill issues we decided to try out a relative novice. This guy was humble due to his lack of experience and had a great attitude because he really wanted the gig. Because he didn't have an ego the size of a city, he was content to stick to the beat with occasional fills that weren't excessive, but tasteful and well thought out (hopefully he wouldn't grow out of this). His volume was perfect because he was listening to the band rather than trying to overpower it. If only there was a way to bottle this and sell it. I'd bring a twelve pack to every gig just in case.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Howlin' Hanson, pcake, Ianhin and 3 others
#65
Ianhin said:
I m actually a drummer. Been playing since i was 12. Bass only came about 1,5 years ago.
That s why i use a Roland kit. Edrums are absolutely the way to go. I can turn the volume down and hit the heck out of them, and the sound guy controls the WHOLE band, incl the drummer, who they normally have very little control over. The percussive attack of acoustic drums is hectic, that s where the "DIN" comes from. So u need to be a very senstive drummer to keep that under control. I used to use Regal Rip Silhouette sticks - they were like pencils! But it meant i could hit harder. Another prob with acoustic kits is that most cymbals need to be hit with a certain amount of force to crash properly. - More noise.
Edrums have a stunning studio quality sound. For decades i tried in vain to get my acoustics to sound like the drums on records and cd s that i heard.
U cant.
Those drums have been recorded under the best possible circumstances.
But if i can also have a bit of a gripe - a couple of musicians i play with also speed up, and i desperately try to hold the band back, but they dont listen, they re all toooooo busy listening to themselves, then the audience think it s me slowing down. And they def look offended when u tell them. And yes, i ve also been guilty of overplaying, often it s becoz u hear muso s discusing how amazing a certain drummer is, so not to be outdone, u start being flashy too. We went to a church meeting the other nite at a diff church (not ours) and the drummer made a huge noise. Result: He impressed all our chuch members and they all came to me all excited and said ....Wow that drummers amazing! Truth: He s not at all amazing. Technically, the stuff he did i was doing when i was 14 years old, but he made a big noise especially with his roto toms.
Now if i was immature about it, i d go to our future services, and turn my drums up and make a huge noise to try and impress everyone! What for, stoke my ego?
Been there done that.
Seen that kind of thing many times, people being impressed by noisy drummers.
Also edrums take up half the space on the stage. They re just awesome.
Click to expand...
Not only that, but you can tune them and add effects without having the headaches of mics feeding back and bleeding over into other channels, etc. Great for practicing with headphones, too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ianhin
#66
LowDownHawkeye said:
My hypothesis is this is not an instrument-specific behavior, but is more correlated to whether the person spent time when young in a concert or marching band, orchestra, or with a good teacher. In the group I play with, it is the rhythm guitar player and (to a lesser degree) bass player that can't keep quiet between songs. Neither has any formal music training. Those of us who do learned long ago not to noodle between songs.
Click to expand...

I have played with drummers who are self taught and some who were formally trained. Some who have years of studio and touring experience at a high level. Only one of them could sit still between songs. I've had the same issue, to a slightly lesser degree with guitarists.
 
#67
The first thing any drummer I work with "needs to understand" is that we're a team working together and we respect each other musically. If there's something I'm unhappy with about his/her playing, such as getting too fancy/busy, I will respectfully try to talk things out. This "my drummer needs to understand ..." mode of thinking is one-sided and almost implicitly says "my own playing is perfect, go fix your problems", which is an attitude which won't get you far in music.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Imaginary Pony, spiritbass, Tbone76 and 2 others
#68
modulusman said:
Leave your Neil Peart size drum kit at home when the stage or band area is small. Don't take all the area with your drum cases when you are setting up. I hate having to wait for the idiot drummer to set up because he was too lazy or stupid too set all his drums down in out the way area. God forbid that he might have to walk a few steps when he needs a drum to set up.
Click to expand...

HAHA I can relate to this! Drummer in my former band considered himself somewhat of a white, slightly nerdy version of Carter Beauford of DMB. We played at this bar quite often that didn't really have a stage, so we'd just set up in a corner of the room. That meant drums in the corner, and then the rest of us kind of set up in front of/around him. He didn't like it... nobody puts Baby in the corner! So at our final gig there, he arrives early, and sets his drums up in the middle of a room, all spread out, with all his little extra woodblocks and doodads. In order to set up around the drumset, our band ended up taking up a very large portion of this room. It looked stupid.
 
#70
I wanted to add another that may be related to other instruments but it usually is a drummer issue even at more advanced levels. This had been touched on.

#7(?) - Know the song! It's not enough to know that it's 4/4 at 110bpm or whatever. Know the lyrics. Know what they mean. Know when to come in. Know how the song ends. Know when to back off and when to crank it up. Know what I'm going to do. Be consistent so I know what you're going to do. Know how the song starts!

Yes, it's usually the good drummer who assumes "I'm a good player; I can play any average song without really knowing it." But that's like me saying I can do the same because I know all my scales and can play really fast or whatever.

Learn the songs. Know the songs.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Omega Monkey
#72
I have played with some of best drummers in my region, I never had to wish they understood anything.
recently I am subbing in a band with a novice drummer, I also don't feel the need to explain anything to him.
whether its the drummer or any other player in the group...I dont want to feel like you need to understand something. I want to play with players who already understand their position/role. If I have to explain it to you, we are already doomed :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: joebar
#73
The current drummer in the band I play keys in showed up to his first practice/ audition with only a kick, snare, and hihat. He didn't know half the tunes at that point but he's such a good listener that he can stop on a dime with the rest of the band if we stop unexpectedly. It's creepy like the dude has ESP.
We've been through three drummers plus two gig subs and he is my favorite.
The band I play bass In, the drummer is too loud, but he has perfect tempo. songs are started and ended at the same tempo and it's near identical to the recording.

Life's too short to tolerate bad drummers. Tell 'em to their face what they ought to change. This is why my first band is on their fourth drummer as we don't hold back!
 
#75
1. Learn to play in time and with some semblance of feel and groove.
2. Learn to tune your drums. They are an instrument that also needs to be properly maintained and prepared for performance.
3. Listen to the rest of the band. Music is an interactive thing.
4. Learn the song. It's really easy to skate by with a stock beat but many songs have specific beats and fills that line up with other parts.
5. Learn proper technique. I've had a run of drummers that think loud rimshots are proper snare hits. They are not. Nice for an occasional effect but a whole night of 130dB BONK BONK BONK is not needed. It's the SNARE DRUM it's already the loudest thing on state trust me there's no problem being heard.
6. Figure out how to set up and tear down quicker. No excuse to take a half hour to set up a 4 piece kit with 2 cymbals.
7. Listen to different styles of music. There's a never-ending resource of influences if you would just branch out a little.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ianhin
#76
I deviated from my norm and only read the OP and am now posting. That is, I didn't want the content of this thread to move me. Here's my fresh and real input.

Ok, drummers? Geeze. Where to start.

  • First of all, know what the pocket is, where it is, and lock in with me. o_O
  • Second of all, drop your volume a bit in the verse, and build with the band when the band needs to build. :banghead:

I'm sticking to only three points, and here's my last. The first two are assuming this third one is already taken care of. Ready?

  • Lastly, hold the tempo and when there is no set part and it's "fielder's choice", please keep the quarter notes on the high-hat or SOMETHING. :bored:

That's it. I could go on and on. Sorry if I'm coming across as petty or arrogant. I don't want to come across that way and certainly don't mean to.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ianhin
#77
The problem we are having at the moment is when there is a break he is not coming back on the one, usually late.
When we do a straight ahead beat with small fills the groove is great.
As we get older , sometimes we have to reduce the flash to a tasteful and precise break instead of a grand flash.
The problem is how to talk about it without upsetting each other.
If you can't talk about it like adults the problems will never be solved, we as a band talked about the problems.
Actually fixing them is another story. :D
 
#78
Max Blasto said:
But Keith sounded the way he did because he _didn't_ know what he was doing. He was just bashing away. Going by feel. And it was great.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you're right about that, I'm not sure, but maybe. I did hear Townsend in interviews complain about Keith not laying it in like a typical drummer, so maybe he didn't know what he was doing. But playing by feel isn't indicative of not knowing, nor is not doing what's typical - regardless of how well it just happened to turn out - if he didn't know what he was doing. -- Watching him during live concert footage, I'm always impressed at how attentive he "appears" to be, deeply focused on Pete's playing the most, but also being quite sensitive in his dynamic range, to glorious extremes when it's time to get quiet, as well as bombastic. If he truly didn't know, he sure had an intrinsic and orchestral way of playing. I think that came from building what he did conceptually on Pete's writing and playing, which, as Tommy and Quadrophenia illustrate, was quite orchestral - and even in the more guitar/bass/drum songs like I Can See For Miles or Baba O'Riley - both very small ensemble, but orchestrally executed pieces. Keith vibed that from Pete. And both Pete and The Mighty Ox were very dramatic players. Moon almost had no choice :-) he'd have been eclipsed to play otherwise.

I've had some friends, guitarists, who jam very well one-on-one with drummers, and this is the same kind of focused interaction I've seen as with Moon. Is it wrong for a drummer, when a bassist is present, to focus and create parts based on the guitar? For some drummers, maybe not such a good idea, but playing in the pocket with the bass is hardly the unbreakable law. As one who grew up with a lot of progressive rock, I like both perspectives, but I'm quite thankful when a drummer can swing both ways, whether he "knows what he's doing" or not :-)

In short, playing with any musician should be a give and take interaction, always expecting a drummer to mold to the bass can be a shade short sighted, methinks. Great music - like The Who included - happens when everybody molds to one another freely, by choice, as well as when requested. That can yield both standard formula, when needed, as well as fresh invention. And goodness, we need that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ReneB

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back