Things we didn't know or do in the 60's and 70's

[Michedelic]

Dick Dale is still alive and kicking! Maybe he would know about this. If it weren't for him, there would have been no Dual Showman!

http://www.dickdale.com/

Uh, no, Dick Dale died almost a year ago, around St. Paddy’s day. I don’t know who maintains that website, but they’re doing a great disservice by not keeping it current. Dick was gigging all the way to the end, when he was very sick, because he had to.

 

[SoulReflection]

I'll bet you didn't! But you haven't told us what kind of pre-amp you were using to drive the Dyna Mk III.

Now you have me wondering @Nevada Pete! I didn't use a separate pre-amp, just straight from bass to amp. It was a Dynaco and it was 60 watts as I recall and, it looked like a MK III according to pics on Google. Could mine have been something else?

 

[WI Short Scaler]

Good story! In the military, they would call that a "field expedient" fuse. At least the joint didn't burn down, which is what could have happened. I trust you planned your escape rout.

Note: For those who don't know, in a perfect world (no mob, etc.) you obtain a replacement for the blown fuse from the electrician you insist the club owner hires to show up right away and figure out what's wrong with the AC power before you will perform. Otherwise, in the event of catastrophe, your band might get blamed for what happened. Especially if the fire marshal found what was left of that fuse!

If this was sarcasm, it was laid on pretty thick and I missed your attempt at humor.

If you are really that condescending, than I guess we just weren't fortunate enough to have your expertise on hand at the time. I was a 20 something year old guessing at a "field expedient" option to perform the gig. There was no indication there was an issue with the electrical system, every other piece of gear powered up and worked just as it should have. And asking for an electrician would have guaranteed no entertainment, no gig. The fact is it was not the board we were told we were getting, since it was NYE the store rented everything and gave us a bottom of the barrel old beat up monster that appeared to have survived the 1906 earthquake that struck CA.

We brought a small metal table in from outside and set it on that, the guy helping us with the board (hard to call him an actual sound man) sat close to monitor it and we shut it off at all breaks to give it a rest. The only other reasonable things I could think of to avoid any damage.

I'm not trying to start anything, just a hint that maybe not everyone appreciates your derision.

 

[Nevada Pete]

Uh, no, Dick Dale died almost a year ago, around St. Paddy’s day. I don’t know who maintains that website, but they’re doing a great disservice by not keeping it current. Dick was gigging all the way to the end, when he was very sick, because he had to.

I'm sorry to hear that. I checked the website before I said anything. I can't imagine why whoever is running it didn't put something up there. Maybe it was paid for in advance? Thanks for making the correction.

Another of the greatest gone. At least he died knowing there were still fans that loved him and would show up to see him play!

 

[Nevada Pete]

If this was sarcasm, it was laid on pretty thick and I missed your attempt at humor.

If you are really that condescending, than I guess we just weren't fortunate enough to have your expertise on hand at the time. I was a 20 something year old guessing at a "field expedient" option to perform the gig. There was no indication there was an issue with the electrical system, every other piece of gear powered up and worked just as it should have. And asking for an electrician would have guaranteed no entertainment, no gig. The fact is it was not the board we were told we were getting, since it was NYE the store rented everything and gave us a bottom of the barrel old beat up monster that appeared to have survived the 1906 earthquake that struck CA.

We brought a small metal table in from outside and set it on that, the guy helping us with the board (hard to call him an actual sound man) sat close to monitor it and we shut it off at all breaks to give it a rest. The only other reasonable things I could think of to avoid any damage.

I'm not trying to start anything, just a hint that maybe not everyone appreciates your derision.

It wasn't derision. My response to your message was intended only for those who might run into a situation where somebody could get hurt, or burned up, and be able to avoid it by not doing what you did. I did read my message over before I put it up there just like I always do to make sure there was nothing personally derisive about it. What you did, though, sir, was entirely worthy of criticism.

I got nothen' to prove to you or anybody else, and I don't personally deride anybody on purpose. Try not to, anyway. Why would I do that? I worked the biggest stages in the world and the only reason I'm on the forum is hopefully to be helpful to others. If you don't appreciate that and realize the world doesn't revolve around you, there's nothing I can do about it.

Let me be perfectly crystal clear, than. Fuses blow for a reason and what you did was the very last thing anyone should read about here on the forum and then attempt to do themselves. I'm not going to let something like that go by when lives could be at stake because in my many years of top tier professional audio experience in the music industry I've seen first hand what can happen. It's not pretty. There, can you appreciate that?

 

[Nevada Pete]

Now you have me wondering @Nevada Pete! I didn't use a separate pre-amp, just straight from bass to amp. It was a Dynaco and it was 60 watts as I recall and, it looked like a MK III according to pics on Google. Could mine have been something else?

I'm stumped!

 

[WI Short Scaler]

It wasn't derision. My response to your message was intended only for those who might run into a situation where somebody could get hurt, or burned up, and be able to avoid it by not doing what you did. I did read my message over before I put it up there just like I always do to make sure there was nothing personally derisive about it. What you did, though, sir, was entirely worthy of criticism.

I got nothen' to prove to you or anybody else, and I don't personally deride anybody on purpose. Try not to, anyway. Why would I do that? I worked the biggest stages in the world and the only reason I'm on the forum is hopefully to be helpful to others. If you don't appreciate that and realize the world doesn't revolve around you, there's nothing I can do about it.

Let me be perfectly crystal clear, than. Fuses blow for a reason and what you did was the very last thing anyone should read about here on the forum and then attempt to do themselves. I'm not going to let something like that go by when lives could be at stake because in my many years of top tier professional audio experience in the music industry I've seen first hand what can happen. It's not pretty. There, can you appreciate that?

I guess you put me in my place. They gave us a piece of crap and I did the only thing I could think of in that situation. If you never did anything when you were young that you look back on as being "not smart" than you win again.

I should have included a disclaimer in the post, that was a mistake on my part.

Your post was still derisive in tone. If you want to come across that way it's fine. I knew enough to never do it again. But I learned those lessons the hard way I guess.

 

[SoulReflection]

I'm stumped!

OK, anyone else out there? Did any or all of their Dynaco's require a pre-amp?

 

[Nevada Pete]

I guess you put me in my place. They gave us a piece of crap and I did the only thing I could think of in that situation. If you never did anything when you were young that you look back on as being "not smart" than you win again.

I should have included a disclaimer in the post, that was a mistake on my part.

Your post was still derisive in tone. If you want to come across that way it's fine. I knew enough to never do it again. But I learned those lessons the hard way I guess.

Learned things the hard way? We all did. I sure did.

I honestly do not intend to be personally derisive. I do not wish to win anything. When I was in aero-space I witnessed someone die being electrocuted. The eyes roll up in the eye sockets, and all you can see is the whites of their eyes. Mucus like liquid comes out of their mouth, and nose. The rest I won't mention. I've seem people thrown across the backstage area and knocked unconscious from electrocution. They twitch like butterfly wings after the shock. There are long-term neurological effects from it.

I am sorry if I offended you. I wish to offend no one. Anything I said was not intended to be personal. I don't want anyone to have to experience anything like that. That's all. I know you don't either. See, we have something in common already.

When it comes to doing things when I was young that I look back on as being "not smart", well, I'm sure I've got you beat there! Trust me. I #$%$# near blew up my whole neighborhood!

 

[WI Short Scaler]

When it comes to doing things when I was young that I look back on as being "not smart", well, I'm sure I've got you beat there! Trust me. I #$%$# near blew up my whole neighborhood!

Gotcha, thanks, time for us to move on. See you on the boards.

 

[bobyoung53]

I think I remember there being a 12" Bandmaster tone ring cab with a JBL D120F loudspeaker like the Nashville Cats used to like to use in their Twin Reverb's. But I couldn't find any pictures of them on Google Images, or references online. A cab like that would have been very rare, I would think. And I may be mistaken, too. That was a while ago. If you had a tone ring cab, in all likelihood I think it would have been a 15.

I do know that at the time, JBL didn't make a 12" bass guitar speaker. Just their 15" D140 / E140's derived from their LE15A. Wonderful loudspeakers, very sensitive and sweet as honey! Back then, they accomplished with superior craftsmanship and very tight tolerances what is attempted today with brute force power, and slop. Harman was recently purchased by Samsung Electronics, so we'll see. I hope they stop messing around with stupid connected cars in India and start concentrating on making loudspeakers, or they will wind up like Boeing.

I sold so many JBL loudspeakers in the San Francisco Bay Area they flew me down to LA and gave me a tour of the factory, and also, of Capitol Records. They offered me a position with JBL as a sales representative, but the job would have been in Chicago! I remember chewing it over one day while I was outside washing my 442. It was a beautiful clear day with bright blue sky, just a few snow white clouds and a light breeze at about 75 degrees temperature. Then I remembered when I was a kid flying into Detroit, Michigan and stepping out of the "Connie" onto the rolling stairs when a blast of sub '0' Artic wind cut through my jeans like a searing hot knife! The extreme cold was literally painful. I called JBL that afternoon and told them thanks anyway, but I didn't want to leave California. California was paradise back then... California girls in black bikini's on the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk, baby! We used to headline at the Cocoanut Grove Ballroom on the Boardwalk there:

This is the Boardwalk complex looking from the Pacific Ocean side. They must have taken that picture from a helicopter.

View attachment 3703483

This is a more close up shot of the ballroom from the outside, obviously.
View attachment 3703484
That's the stage on the upper right side of the photograph taken from the balcony that surrounds the entire dance floor. On the right side of the photograph you can see where the balcony stops right next to the stage. If you look closely you can see the railing. There's another big room off to the left with the rounded wall and big picture windows facing the ocean as you can see in the above photograph. Obviously, there were no tables and chairs on the dance floor when we played there.

View attachment 3703481

A much more reserved crowd than we would draw on Saturday night in Santa Cruz! But it gives you a good idea what the stage was like. If you stepped on the brass cannon microphone jacks embedded in the stage floor from the old house PA, you got 220 volts through your feet! Even if you were wearing thick soled shoes! It felt like 220 volts, anyway. Maybe they fixed that by now.

View attachment 3703517

Here's a shot with more people where they had something set up in front of the stage. It gives you an idea how big the joint was. Perfect for a Dual Showman (or two for bass!)

View attachment 3703495

We got evicted from our apartment when my wife became ill (and lost her job of 20 years for not showing up for work), and I lost all my photographs of us playing that room.

Looks like a GREAT gig.

 

[Nevada Pete]

Looks like a GREAT gig.

Besides the women you would would meet, and overlooking the embedded brass covered microphone jacks on the stage floor that would shock the living #$%$# out of you if you accidentally stepped on one, the best thing about the Cocoanut Grove Ballroom was the freight elevator.

The ballroom is on the second story of the boardwalk and you could drive right in to the service area in the back and load all your gear into this gigantic elevator, and up it would go! This was especially good because we had to bring in a pretty good sized sound system which would have been impractical to lug up a flight of stairs along with all our Dual Showman's, guitars and drums. As I like to say, kids these days don't know how lucky they are with the new PA gear.

 

[WI Short Scaler]

Elevators? Just thinking in all my years of playing in Central WI I've never played anywhere there was an elevator, but luckily we've only played a handful of places with a 2nd floor. Small towns ya know.

I do remember there was a venue in our town that had a bar and bowling alley downstairs and the 2nd floor was the banquet hall. When I was a kid that was a happening place, weddings every Sat night or some other gathering. The climb from sidewalk to banquet hall for the musicians was around 80 stairs or something. My dad and his brother are both musicians that had their own old time/polka bands and they hauled their Cordovox systems up those stairs regularly, they probably remember the exact count. The cabinets for the cordovox, including the leslie unit, were like anchors. Cordovox=electric accordion if anyone hasn't heard that term. The cordovox/accordion unit itself was around 30-40 lbs, no wonder their shoulders are shot at 70+ years old.

I do love powered Mackies, have I mentioned that.

 

[Nevada Pete]

Elevators? Just thinking in all my years of playing in Central WI I've never played anywhere there was an elevator, but luckily we've only played a handful of places with a 2nd floor. Small towns ya know.

I do remember there was a venue in our town that had a bar and bowling alley downstairs and the 2nd floor was the banquet hall. When I was a kid that was a happening place, weddings every Sat night or some other gathering. The climb from sidewalk to banquet hall for the musicians was around 80 stairs or something. My dad and his brother are both musicians that had their own old time/polka bands and they hauled their Cordovox systems up those stairs regularly, they probably remember the exact count. The cabinets for the cordovox, including the leslie unit, were like anchors. Cordovox=electric accordion if anyone hasn't heard that term. The cordovox/accordion unit itself was around 30-40 lbs, no wonder their shoulders are shot at 70+ years old.

I do love powered Mackies, have I mentioned that.

We had to learn to Polka in high school as part of PE. Everybody was like, this is going to be not cool. But we quickly found out polka is a complete blast! It's just tons of fun! I actually wouldn't mind being in a Polka band. Some of the stuff they record in Europe along those lines like the Alpenzusjes (Alpine Sisters) combines an electric bass with a tuba. They totally rock out, man! And no distorted guitars! Just lots of beer! There's video's on YouTube of them with good sound quality.

 

[WI Short Scaler]

We had to learn to Polka in high school as part of PE. Everybody was like, this is going to be not cool. But we quickly found out polka is a complete blast! It's just tons of fun! I actually wouldn't mind being in a Polka band. Some of the stuff they record in Europe along those lines like the Alpenzusjes (Alpine Sisters) combines an electric bass with a tuba. They totally rock out, man! And no distorted guitars! Just lots of beer! There's video's on YouTube of them with good sound quality.

I'll have to look them up. You are correct, polkas are fun.

My first instrument ever played was accordion, because of course we had 5 or 6 of them around the house and I could get free lessons. I played a couple times with the old man's band, basic parts but it was my first taste of how fun a band could be. Later I played drums and filled in that way as well.

I actually wish I'd kept up with the accordion. I just got a 12 bass last fall that my dad had sitting around, need to practice more. It's a dying art form.

 

[Daddy-R]

We had to learn to Polka in high school as part of PE. Everybody was like, this is going to be not cool. But we quickly found out polka is a complete blast! It's just tons of fun! I actually wouldn't mind being in a Polka band. Some of the stuff they record in Europe along those lines like the Alpenzusjes (Alpine Sisters) combines an electric bass with a tuba. They totally rock out, man! And no distorted guitars! Just lots of beer! There's video's on YouTube of them with good sound quality.

You may wanna check out the "Molly B Polka Party" on RFD. Lots of young dancers mixed in with oldsters. Lot's of exercise and can be as complicated as you wish. Polkas are fun to play, Start out with Bill Bailey, Just Because and graduate to Roll Out the Barrel

 

[Nevada Pete]

I'll have to look them up. You are correct, polkas are fun.

My first instrument ever played was accordion, because of course we had 5 or 6 of them around the house and I could get free lessons. I played a couple times with the old man's band, basic parts but it was my first taste of how fun a band could be. Later I played drums and filled in that way as well.

I actually wish I'd kept up with the accordion. I just got a 12 bass last fall that my dad had sitting around, need to practice more. It's a dying art form.

<It's a dying art form.>

They seem to be keeping up with it in Europe. Check out the Twinnies from ten or so years ago. They're playing Steirische Harmonika's (chromatic accordions) on rollerskates! They skated around their mountain village as young girls singing and playing with each other for fun, and were discovered by a record producer at the resort owned by the younger of the two girls parents. He signed them on the spot. They have accordion festivals and all kinds of traditional music across the pond. The video has over 18 million views:

 

[Nevada Pete]

Now you have me wondering @Nevada Pete! I didn't use a separate pre-amp, just straight from bass to amp. It was a Dynaco and it was 60 watts as I recall and, it looked like a MK III according to pics on Google. Could mine have been something else?

This is a list of hi-fi equipment manufactured by Danaco, copied from Wikipedia. Except some of the gear at the end of the list was solid state.

Dynaco tube equipment[edit]
Dynaco introduced tube audio amplifiers, tuners, and preamplifiers between 1955 and 1976.

Model Type Channels
(Power) Year Introduced
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Power Amp Mono
(50 watts) 1955
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Preamp Mono 1957
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Power Amp Mono
(60 watts) 1957
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Power Amp Stereo
(35 wpc) 1959
Invalid Link Removed Preamp Stereo 1960
[This invalid link has been removed] Power Amp Mono
(40 watts) 1960
[This invalid link has been removed] FM tuner Mono 1961
[This invalid link has been removed] Power Amp Stereo
(17.5 wpc) 1963
[This invalid link has been removed] Integrated Amp Stereo
(17.5 wpc) 1964
Dynaco FM-3 FM tuner Stereo 1964
Dynaco PAS-3X Preamp Stereo 1966
Dynaco Mark VI Power Amp Mono
(120 watts) 1976

As you can see, there is an integrated stereo amp (preamp and power amp combined), the SCA-35, but at 35 Watts that wouldn't have worked very well with an electric bass. For one thing, there were no quarter inch phone jacks on those units. Just RCA jacks. The RCA line level inputs wouldn't have worked with a bass plugged directly into them, and the phono input that would have had enough gain to use with an electric bass had RIAA phono equalization, and wouldn't have sounded very good.

There are no quarter inch phone jacks on the Dynaco Mk III power amp. Unless you had an active bass at the time and installed a quarter inch phone jack on the Mk III or made some kind of adapter, I don't see how a MK III could have been used as you described.

Bogen made several integrated PA amplifiers both tube and solid state (mic mixer and power amplifier combined in one unit), and it's possible that some of those had quarter inch high impedance microphone inputs that would have worked fine with an electric bass. Shure manufacturers an in-line barrel impedance matching transformer in several configurations, and everybody used to use those to match a high impedance microphone to a balanced low impedance microphone input. They had a female quarter inch phone jack to plug the microphone into, and a male cannon connector to plug into a low impedance balanced microphone input. The Shure in-line impedance matching transformer would have worked to match your electric bass to a low impedance microphone input.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe you were using a Bogen PA amplifier to run you bass through, and got it mixed up with the Dynaco gear. A Bogen PA amplifier with a built in microphone preamplifier would have worked well as a bass head. If you were using a Dynaco Mk III for a bass amp, you would have required some kind of preamp. There's no way to plug a bass directly into a Mk III without modification.

If you figure this out, let me know. I'm curious.

 

[bobyoung53]

We had to learn to Polka in high school as part of PE. Everybody was like, this is going to be not cool. But we quickly found out polka is a complete blast! It's just tons of fun! I actually wouldn't mind being in a Polka band. Some of the stuff they record in Europe along those lines like the Alpenzusjes (Alpine Sisters) combines an electric bass with a tuba. They totally rock out, man! And no distorted guitars! Just lots of beer! There's video's on YouTube of them with good sound quality.

I think we elder statesmen probably had to play a wider variety of music than the youngun's, probably because of AM radio. I remember listening to the Beatles which would be followed by a Frank Sinatra tune, then by an Al Hirt tune etc. I too liked playing polka music, great music to play bass along with country, it taught me precision, feel, length of notes, staying with the kick etc.

 

[bobyoung53]

This is a list of hi-fi equipment manufactured by Danaco, copied from Wikipedia. Except some of the gear at the end of the list was solid state.

Dynaco tube equipment[edit]
Dynaco introduced tube audio amplifiers, tuners, and preamplifiers between 1955 and 1976.

Model Type Channels
(Power) Year Introduced
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Power Amp Mono
(50 watts) 1955
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Preamp Mono 1957
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Power Amp Mono
(60 watts) 1957
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Power Amp Stereo
(35 wpc) 1959
Invalid Link Removed Preamp Stereo 1960
[This invalid link has been removed] Power Amp Mono
(40 watts) 1960
[This invalid link has been removed] FM tuner Mono 1961
[This invalid link has been removed] Power Amp Stereo
(17.5 wpc) 1963
[This invalid link has been removed] Integrated Amp Stereo
(17.5 wpc) 1964
Dynaco FM-3 FM tuner Stereo 1964
Dynaco PAS-3X Preamp Stereo 1966
Dynaco Mark VI Power Amp Mono
(120 watts) 1976

As you can see, there is an integrated stereo amp (preamp and power amp combined), the SCA-35, but at 35 Watts that wouldn't have worked very well with an electric bass. For one thing, there were no quarter inch phone jacks on those units. Just RCA jacks. The RCA line level inputs wouldn't have worked with a bass plugged directly into them, and the phono input that would have had enough gain to use with an electric bass had RIAA phono equalization, and wouldn't have sounded very good.

There are no quarter inch phone jacks on the Dynaco Mk III power amp. Unless you had an active bass at the time and installed a quarter inch phone jack on the Mk III or made some kind of adapter, I don't see how a MK III could have been used as you described.

Bogen made several integrated PA amplifiers both tube and solid state (mic mixer and power amplifier combined in one unit), and it's possible that some of those had quarter inch high impedance microphone inputs that would have worked fine with an electric bass. Shure manufacturers an in-line barrel impedance matching transformer in several configurations, and everybody used to use those to match a high impedance microphone to a balanced low impedance microphone input. They had a female quarter inch phone jack to plug the microphone into, and a male cannon connector to plug into a low impedance balanced microphone input. The Shure in-line impedance matching transformer would have worked to match your electric bass to a low impedance microphone input.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe you were using a Bogen PA amplifier to run you bass through, and got it mixed up with the Dynaco gear. A Bogen PA amplifier with a built in microphone preamplifier would have worked well as a bass head. If you were using a Dynaco Mk III for a bass amp, you would have required some kind of preamp. There's no way to plug a bass directly into a Mk III without modification.

If you figure this out, let me know. I'm curious.

I had a Mk III for my stereo along with a bridged ST-70 on the other channel, both of those need a preamp.