Thinking of going from P to double-reverse -P

[markanini]

1. Nothing blends as well as double reverse P.
2. Half a P south from classic-P is part of the secret sauce behind Mike Inez tone-mogging on Back to the Beginning to the Begging in Birmingham.

Do it!

 

[Riff Ranger]

1. Nothing blends as well as double reverse P.
2. Half a P south from classic-P is part of the secret sauce behind Mike Inez tone-mogging on Back to the Beginning to the Begging in Birmingham.

Do it!

Good to hear!

 

[Empap]

Ah, does the Hoppus setup have the EA half in the standard Fender position and the DG half closer to the neck? If so, that does sound like a good option.

I think the earlier hoppus sig P reverse pickup maybe slightly half inch more forward to neck site.

All Fender Mark Hoppus basses have the EA half about 1/2 inch closer to the neck compared to a P bass, reversed or standard P, jag or jazz.
@Riff Ranger it's a bit off topic, but do you know if your PU is in the OG placement? some brands push it up or down to comply with the body shape, or to leave space between the 24th fret and the PU.

 

[Riff Ranger]

but do you know if your PU is in the OG placement?

The center of the pole pieces on the bass side pickup half are ~15cm/6” from the bridge saddles, same as on my Peavey Fury. My Yamaha BB734A seems to have it a teensy bit further from the saddles; my Ibanez RB924 seems to have it a teensy bit closer to the saddles; but the differences seem so small that intonation adjustments might account for the variation. All 864mm/34” scale instruments.

 

[Isaac_James]

The center of the pole pieces on the bass side pickup half are ~15cm/6” from the bridge saddles, same as on my Peavey Fury. My Yamaha BB734A seems to have it a teensy bit further from the saddles; my Ibanez RB924 seems to have it a teensy bit closer to the saddles; but the differences seem so small that intonation adjustments might account for the variation. All 864mm/34” scale instruments.

Well, now you've gone and piqued my curiosity. I have 3 PJ basses, and because I'm very normal about all of this I decided to measure the distance from the end of the 12th fret (to eliminate any fudging from intonation adjustment) to the bass side half of the P pickup and the J pickup, using the center of the pole.

Fender PJ (MIM, 2002): P: 11" J: 14 13/16"
Yamaha BB735A (2022): P: 10 7/8" J: 14 11/16"
Ibanez SR800 (MIJ, 1999): P: 12 1/4" (10 1/2") J: 15 1/8"

All 3 basses are 34" scale and have Fender standard sized pickups. The spacing between pickups is the same on the Fender and Yamaha, but everything is shifted 1/8" neckward. According to Wikipedia, the difference between 60s spacing and 70s bridge pickup spacing on a Fender Jazz bass is 0.4", and that creates an audible but subtle difference, so a change of 1/8" (0.125"), all else being equal, might make a little bit of a difference, but not that much, if I had to guess.

The Ibanez is clearly the outlier here, but the difference on the P pickup is largely due to it being a reverse PJ. The treble half of the pickup is 10 1/2" from the neck - closer overall than either the Fender or the Yamaha (it looks even closer in the photo because this is the only one with 24 frets, the Fender has 20 and the Yamaha 21). And the bridge pickup is notably further away - 5/16" (0.3125") closer to the bridge than the Fender, and 7/16" (0.4375") closer than the Yamaha. Both of those are within the ballpark of 70s vs 60s spacing difference.

 

[Riff Ranger]

Well, now you've gone and piqued my curiosity. I have 3 PJ basses, and because I'm very normal about all of this I decided to measure the distance from the end of the 12th fret (to eliminate any fudging from intonation adjustment) to the bass side half of the P pickup and the J pickup, using the center of the pole.

Fender PJ (MIM, 2002): P: 11" J: 14 13/16"
Yamaha BB735A (2022): P: 10 7/8" J: 14 11/16"
Ibanez SR800 (MIJ, 1999): P: 12 1/4" (10 1/2") J: 15 1/8"

All 3 basses are 34" scale and have Fender standard sized pickups. The spacing between pickups is the same on the Fender and Yamaha, but everything is shifted 1/8" neckward. According to Wikipedia, the difference between 60s spacing and 70s bridge pickup spacing on a Fender Jazz bass is 0.4", and that creates an audible but subtle difference, so a change of 1/8" (0.125"), all else being equal, might make a little bit of a difference, but not that much, if I had to guess.

The Ibanez is clearly the outlier here, but the difference on the P pickup is largely due to it being a reverse PJ. The treble half of the pickup is 10 1/2" from the neck - closer overall than either the Fender or the Yamaha (it looks even closer in the photo because this is the only one with 24 frets, the Fender has 20 and the Yamaha 21). And the bridge pickup is notably further away - 5/16" (0.3125") closer to the bridge than the Fender, and 7/16" (0.4375") closer than the Yamaha. Both of those are within the ballpark of 70s vs 60s spacing difference.

View attachment 7420820

Because I’m the same kind of totally normal, I just confirmed that the spacing on my pointy Electra precisely matches that of your Fender … Precision … precisely.

 

[Ricky Rioli]

iirc the 735's P being ever so slightly closer to the neck than on than on a Fender is the same on the previous generation of BBs (424, 425, 1024 etc)

 

[Riff Ranger]

I have committed! Just snagged the last DiMarzio Model P in stock at AMS. It seems like BC Rich and others had enough success with those paired in several production models (albeit in at least slightly different configurations from what I want to try) that it makes sense to start with (essentially) two Model Ps.

 

[poochiecheeks]

I have committed! Just snagged the last DiMarzio Model P in stock at AMS. It seems like BC Rich and others had enough success with those paired in several production models (albeit in at least slightly different configurations from what I want to try) that it makes sense to start with (essentially) two Model Ps.

+1000 yes

This had a model P neck and split P bridge, the tone was so unbalanced and scooped it wasn't even funny. Still a work in progress right now (needs permanent electronics) but these two Model Ps are within .2kOhm of each other and balance far better than before. You will see it when you install yours. I think theres a reason that just about every BCR you see has two model Ps in it.

 

[Empap]

Well, now you've gone and piqued my curiosity. I have 3 PJ basses, and because I'm very normal about all of this I decided to measure the distance from the end of the 12th fret (to eliminate any fudging from intonation adjustment) to the bass side half of the P pickup and the J pickup, using the center of the pole.

Fender PJ (MIM, 2002): P: 11" J: 14 13/16"
Yamaha BB735A (2022): P: 10 7/8" J: 14 11/16"
Ibanez SR800 (MIJ, 1999): P: 12 1/4" (10 1/2") J: 15 1/8"

Usually people measure from PU's center. so right between to the pieces of the split P. But I've measured both coils and PU center and put them in a file so that it's easier to compare with different PU shapes. also to you might see the measures from the nut around, so +17'' to these numbers, basically.

Also I think you may have one measure wrong for the SR800 P?, it's usually 1 1/8'' or 1 1/4'' of space between the pole pieces...

For reference:
- your Fender PJ is Split P sweet spot + exact 70s Jazz Bridge.
- The Yamaha has the EA half exactly where the Jazz Neck coils would be (10 7/8''). and the J Bridge is kind of in between 60s/70s
- Your Ibanez seems to have the 70s Jazz spacing (approx. 4'' between the Neck and Bridge PUs), if you measure from between the two halves of the split P. The other two basses have a spacing tighter than a 60s Jazz bass (roughly 3.6''), if we measure the same way.

I agree with you, especially for the P position, that 1/8'' probably doesn't make any difference sound-wise. However it probably does, as you get closer to the bridge (like, past the 70s jazz position). It's also been noted that the exact position shifts by a few 16ths on fenders from one decade to another.

 

[Isaac_James]

Usually people measure from PU's center. so right between to the pieces of the split P. But I've measured both coils and PU center and put them in a file so that it's easier to compare with different PU shapes. also to you might see the measures from the nut around, so +17'' to these numbers, basically.

Also I think you may have one measure wrong for the SR800 P?, it's usually 1 1/8'' or 1 1/4'' of space between the pole pieces...

For reference:
- your Fender PJ is Split P sweet spot + exact 70s Jazz Bridge.
- The Yamaha has the EA half exactly where the Jazz Neck coils would be (10 7/8''). and the J Bridge is kind of in between 60s/70s
- Your Ibanez seems to have the 70s Jazz spacing (approx. 4'' between the Neck and Bridge PUs), if you measure from between the two halves of the split P. The other two basses have a spacing tighter than a 60s Jazz bass (roughly 3.6''), if we measure the same way.

I agree with you, especially for the P position, that 1/8'' probably doesn't make any difference sound-wise. However it probably does, as you get closer to the bridge (like, past the 70s jazz position). It's also been noted that the exact position shifts by a few 16ths on fenders from one decade to another.

Thanks for the info! It's quite possible I did a measurement wrong there, it was a pretty quick job. I'll check again when I get home tonight.

Makes sense that the small change in distance has a more noticeable effect the closer you get to the bridge, since it's a larger proportion of the total distance the closer you get. But hard to say for sure since these are all different basses with different pickups. The Ibanez is especially unique as I put some Wilde pickups in there, they have an extra pole piece so the strings sit directly over poles instead of between them.

 

[Chris Hass]

Are there any basses out there that already have a neck pickup in the "1/2 reverse" position? Could be an easier mod for my idea.

 

[Riff Ranger]

Are there any basses out there that already have a neck pickup in the "1/2 reverse" position? Could be an easier mod for my idea.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “1/2 reverse,” but you might want to look into the Fender Mark Hoppus signature and the Reverend Wattplower.

 

[definenredefine]

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “1/2 reverse,” but you might want to look into the Fender Mark Hoppus signature and the Reverend Wattplower.

Assuming "1/2 reverse" means they just moved the bottom coil closer to the neck, then I think the Mark Hoppus fits the bill.

 

[Chris Hass]

Assuming "1/2 reverse" means they just moved the bottom coil closer to the neck, then I think the Mark Hoppus fits the bill.

Kind of.. unfortunately the E/A string side is moved closer to the neck as well on the Hoppus bass.

 

[definenredefine]

Kind of.. unfortunately the E/A string side is moved closer to the neck as well on the Hoppus bass.

Oh boo.

 

[Empap]

Kind of.. unfortunately the E/A string side is moved closer to the neck as well on the Hoppus bass.

I was thinking maybe the yamaha BBs, but it looks like they moved the EA closer to the bridge by about half a PU width.

Here's a collage of a couple models, the measures are not perfect at all since pictures can be taken at an angle. But from that,none of them seem to fit the bill. although i'd argue the FGN Mighty Power might be right on the money as it's very close. Hard to find tho. The Reverend Decision P also looks really close.
I'd argue that if you ever get to see one of these models IRL and have the chance to measure them, if they are less than a 1/4 of a inch difference 12th fret to magnets, it will probably be close enough to barely hear the difference. Hand placement will have more influence at that level.

Maybe some other models that i'm not aware of are even closer to the OG EA half position...

 

[sikamikanico]

I was thinking maybe the yamaha BBs, but it looks like they moved the EA closer to the bridge by about half a PU width.

Here's a collage of a couple models, the measures are not perfect at all since pictures can be taken at an angle. But from that,none of them seem to fit the bill. although i'd argue the FGN Mighty Power might be right on the money as it's very close. Hard to find tho. The Reverend Decision P also looks really close.
I'd argue that if you ever get to see one of these models IRL and have the chance to measure them, if they are less than a 1/4 of a inch difference 12th fret to magnets, it will probably be close enough to barely hear the difference. Hand placement will have more influence at that level. View attachment 7449087

Maybe some other models that i'm not aware of are even closer to the OG EA half position...

I'd bet the FGN and the Hoppus basses are just fine, small differences matter very little in the neck position. Even the BB sounds in the ballpark.

Another contender is the ESP Rocco Prestia signature, tho it does not have a Fender look, and I'm not sure how the pickup placement would compare exactly.

 

[Ricky Rioli]

I was thinking maybe the yamaha BBs, but it looks like they moved the EA closer to the bridge by about half a PU width.

Here's a collage of a couple models, the measures are not perfect at all since pictures can be taken at an angle. But from that,none of them seem to fit the bill. although i'd argue the FGN Mighty Power might be right on the money as it's very close. Hard to find tho. The Reverend Decision P also looks really close.
I'd argue that if you ever get to see one of these models IRL and have the chance to measure them, if they are less than a 1/4 of a inch difference 12th fret to magnets, it will probably be close enough to barely hear the difference. Hand placement will have more influence at that level. View attachment 7449087

Maybe some other models that i'm not aware of are even closer to the OG EA half position...

The problem with that photo is that the second fixed point is a guess at the bridge. Try to take a line across the 19th frets and you'll see that the scaling isn't accurate.

 

[Isaac_James]

I was thinking maybe the yamaha BBs, but it looks like they moved the EA closer to the bridge by about half a PU width.

Here's a collage of a couple models, the measures are not perfect at all since pictures can be taken at an angle. But from that,none of them seem to fit the bill. although i'd argue the FGN Mighty Power might be right on the money as it's very close. Hard to find tho. The Reverend Decision P also looks really close.
I'd argue that if you ever get to see one of these models IRL and have the chance to measure them, if they are less than a 1/4 of a inch difference 12th fret to magnets, it will probably be close enough to barely hear the difference. Hand placement will have more influence at that level. View attachment 7449087

Maybe some other models that i'm not aware of are even closer to the OG EA half position...

The Yamaha here is the Peter Hook signature BB model, which is the only one among the current lineup that has a reverse position P pickup. Some older models have the reverse P; Yamaha has changed this up over the years.

I agree that sweating over miniscule changes in the position is probably more trouble than it's worth. Lots of other things like hand position as you said, or string choice, pickup model, height of the pickup, amp, cab, EQ, etc. are all going to affect it so much that one small variable isn't going to be that important.

I've also read that the difference between certain distance (e.g. 1/4") is more pronounced the closer you are to the bridge, but I can't back that up with experience or a scientific explanation, so take it with a grain of salt.