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This Dorian scale

#61
Whousedtoplay said:
N.B It's not about the role a comping bass line - it's about taking some baby steps towards "improvisation".

If I play ascending C - E - G and A notes (like arpeggiating C6) with Dmin7 , and end on B with G7, what mode am I playing?
What if I play ascending E - G - A and C (Amin7) with Dmin7 and end on D with G7 - what mode am I using?
What if I play ascending G - A - C and D with Dmin7, and continue E and B with G7 - what mode am I playing?
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The one thing to know is that the specific note for a Dorian mode is that major 6th. So if there are no major 6th in your line then you cannot tell if you are playing a dorian mode or something else.

Also all the notes you describe are C major related so I start now in my improv to downsize my choice to the Major bebop scale over a whole tune or section even over minor tonality using the relative major for singing and hearing purposes. I am singing all my solos while improvising more and more.

One more thing that is becoming a standard in jazz improv is to play the Mixolydian bebop scale over the whole II-V. So you place some passing notes anywhere you want in your scales of choice. So there are so many choices and I haven't touch the blues scale yet :)
 
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#62
Groove Master said:
The one thing to know is that the specific note for a Dorian mode is that major 6th. So if there are no major 6th in your line then you cannot tell if you are playing a dorian mode or something else.

Also all the notes you describe are C major related so I start more and more in my improv to downsize my choice to the Major bebop scale over a whole tune or section even over minor tonality using the relative major for signing and hearing purposes. I am signing all my solos while improvising.

One more thing that is becoming a standard in jazz improv is to play the Mixolydian bebop scale over the whole II-V. So you place some passing notes anywhere you want in your scales of choice. So there are so many choices and I haven't touch the blues scale yet :)
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I always like your very informative, interesting, and knowledgeable comments. :thumbsup:
And I know I am not the only one TB member who truly enjoys your posts.
 
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#63
Jimmy is right about chordal theory.
As a bassist, chord tones are key; that's why it's important to know the basic chordal structure of whatever your playing. Once you know that, you can connect the dots with notes that fit. You'll be playing modal passages by accident that sound good rather than trying to do it intentionally.
I put Dorian down as one of the minor modes; the natural 6 makes it slightly less sad than a natural minor.
 
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#64
joebar said:
the natural 6 makes it slightly less sad than a natural minor.
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Major 6 not natural 6. This doesn't mean a thing...

And you should know that the dorian mode is not just another minor mode but it is the only diatonic minor mode that you can actually fit all the 7 notes from the scale in an arpeggio: Dmin13. The dorian is the hippest minor mode ;-)
 
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#67
dreamadream99 said:
If you are soloing on a Dm7 chord, the chord tones are D, F, A, and C. How you fill the notes between them is up to you. Sure, using notes in the key is the safe choice, but since when is jazz ever safe?
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Jazz like any other style of music have some rules also. Not knowing what is the proper scale to play over a functional chord is a real no-no especially for the bass player. Knowing where and when a dorian mode occurs is essential for us just like any other type of chords. A lot of basslines either in jazz or pop are made up from diatonic lines and not just chord-tones because chord-tones don't reveal anything about the key center, diatonic notes do.
 
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#69
Russell L said:
Yes, you're right, the diatonic notes around and between the chord tones will describe the key signature.
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There is a multi-page thread advocating playing chord notes while "improvising". I do not like it.
I'm not an "improviser" due to numerous "issues" but I know what to request from an improviser should I need one.
As a starting point, I always try to find a "parental scale" (diatonic notes), the tonal center for this or that chord progression, or for the whole song/composition.
And that tonal center could be as permanent or temporary; therefore, I would not play the Dorian mode with Major 6 if my chord progression is Dmin / Gmin / C7 etc..., and not because of the "sadness" factor.

Knowing the "correct" parental/source scale with this/that chord or with this/that chord progression, or just a part of it would allow me to find "correct" (diatonic at first) notes with this/that level of "tension/s" for my melody/improvisation.
Anyway, I'm not a teacher, and I don't want to be a teacher; therefore, take my blah-blah comments with caution and always consult serious music theory/harmony experts.
 
#71
According to George Russell, we should play F Lydian over the F/Dminor chord, the scale that resembles the Dorian mode.

FLyd.PNG
 
#72
Nev375 said:
You are correct, but it's easier for me to remember the modes based upon which intervals differ from the major scale.

So for Dorian I just drop the 7 and 3 intervals a half step.


I just memorize this order. each one is a slight one note variation of the one before. Just flatten the appropriate scale degree. Lydian is the only one which sharpens a note.

Major + #4 =.......................... Lydian
Major = ................................Ionian
Major + b7 =...........................Mixolydian
Major + b7 + b3 =......................Dorian
Major + b7 + b3 + b6 =................Aeolian (minor scale)
Major + b7 + b3 + b6 + b2 =.........Phrygian
Major + b7 + b3 + b6 + b2 + b5 =..Locrian

Observe both lydian and mixolydian are both only 1 note altered from the major scale. one is sharpened, one is flattened. One sounds more "dreamy or quirkier" the other slightly more sad or more towards minor.

As you continue to flatten intervals the scales get darker and darker sounding. Phrygian and Locrian are both darker than Aeolian which is the most used minor sounding mode and is the defacto minor scale.

Notice that both ends of the spectrum contain the dreaded tritone interval. But it doesn't sound as unharmonious and evil when used in Lydian.

If you can remember the numbers 4 and 73625 and that list you've learned your modes and from there it's simply a matter of practicing them and playing music in them until your fingers catch on also.
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A book that helped me with the interval concept is Bass Grimoire by Carl Fischer. It is a little bit of a cheat guide because it focuses more on charts that actual staff notation, but the intro section on theory is a great primer, and it contains a ton of strange modes\scales that most books don't cover.
 
#73
Whil57 said:
I played (keyboard)with a bassist, a new player, who was so wrapped up in theory, he couldnt play a root note song. Take Every Breath You Take by the police. He kept trying to analyze the chords and or scale, and insisted on trying to work them all in to the music. I tried to explain to him go for the rhythm first. But nope, he had it in his head already that he had to play the right scale to the right chord at all times. I really wanted to hunt down his teacher (who i do applaud for trying to throw some advanced instruction in) but to me was so inappropriate for a first year player.
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Specially that song. It isn't an overly complicated bass line; once I got the tuning figured out (it plays better tuned a half step down) I picked it up in 3 tries. If you add too much flash to the bass line you ruin the pulse of the song. I don't generally get worked up about simple bass lines, but there is a heartbeat aspect to that one that is critical to the tension of the song. There is one part that goes back and forth to an octave, but for the most part it is roots, then one little section at the end with a harmonized measure that makes take a sudden dark turn.
It's a fun song. I like playing that one and Synchronicity II.
 
#77
socialleper said:
Specially that song. It isn't an overly complicated bass line; once I got the tuning figured out (it plays better tuned a half step down) I picked it up in 3 tries. If you add too much flash to the bass line you ruin the pulse of the song.
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I know it's off-topic, but I've got intrigued by a suggestion
to "improve" that bass line (from "Every breath you take"),
to add some "necessary" flash to it.
How would/could our TB members "improve" that bass-line from "Every breath you take"?
That song is easily recognized all over the world and only three musicians could make that song sound so good in any concert venues - huge stadiums with tens of thousands people, or in small bars.
Just wonder...

 
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#78
Whousedtoplay said:
I know it's off-topic, but I've got intrigued by a suggestion
to "improve" that bass line (from "Every breath you take"),
to add some "necessary" flash to it.
How would/could our TB members "improve" that bass-line from "Every breath you take"?
That song is easily recognized all over the world and only three musicians could make that song sound so good in any concert venues - huge stadiums with tens of thousands people, or in small bars.
Just wonder...

Click to expand...

Slap.
 
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#80
JimmyM said:
Slap.
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Whousedtoplay said:
Like that Octave Slap/Pop. :bassist:
Or maybe, like Mark King's arpeggiated Thumbing bass line in "Lessons in Love"? :hyper:
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Ha! Slap is so far off my bass radar that I thought @JimmyM was suggesting your post was a slap-down of any suggestion that the line could be improved...

I still think I'm closer to the mark - there's a lot of fine detail in that line for those that care to listen.
 
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