This Dorian scale

[40Hz]

JimmyM is an excellent and very knowledgeable bass player but that statement about learning the one and only chromatic scale (starting with the note X ?) got me confused

I think the point was that no matter what you want to call a specific interval or chord, or mode, or scale, they're all just different ways of looking at the relationships of notes to each other.

But underneath all of that are the 12 tones (i.e. chromatic scale) that make up an octave in Western music. Whether you think about subsets of those 12 tones in terms of 'standard' scales or modes (two different ways thinking about music theory) they remain the same.

But in the larger scheme of things, a note either works or doesn't work within the context of what else is being played with it - which is to say the song or passage.

So don't get overly hung up on music theory. It's a useful tool for gaining a deeper insight into how music works. But it's still just a tool. Not some cosmic truth.

 

[JimmyM]

I think the point was that no matter what you want to call a specific interval or chord, or mode, or scale, they're all just different ways of looking at the relationships of notes to each other.

But underneath all of that are the 12 tones (i.e. chromatic scale) that make up an octave in Western music. Whether you think about subsets of those 12 tones in terms of 'standard' scales or modes (two different ways thinking about music theory) they remain the same.

But in the larger scheme of things, a note either works or doesn't work within the context of what else is being played with it - which is to say the song or passage.

So don't get overly hung up on music theory. It's a useful tool for gaining a deeper insight into how music works. But it's still just a tool. Not some cosmic truth.

Word. Theory exists to explain what we're hearing, not to dictate what we play.

BTW, I think "excellent" is a bit strong for me. I have my weaknesses. So let's just say "very very good."

 

[JTE]

Dorian, like all modes is a DOUND. It's not a C scale started in the middle. Yeah, those are the notes, but it's a bit the relationships between those notes. Dorian is a minor sound (as it has a flat 3), but the 6th is raised. Learning how any scale SOUNDS is the critical thing to learn. And frankly, real world is that, given our job is to define the harmony, most modal applications are utterly at odds with that job.

Are you playing a modal composition like "So What"? Use modal tools. Playing music built on diatonic harmony (e.g. standards with ii V I, I IV V, etc? Then learn to identify key centers so your line connects those chord by working with what they have in common as well as the differences.

If you don't know how to determine what notes are in the chords of the song, you don't really need to be getting bogged down in modal theory yet.

Again, looking at modes as the diatonic major scale starting on the 2nd is absolutely the least useful way to learn them. Instead of C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc., learn C Ionian, C Dorian, etc. so you're hearing how Dorian is different from Ionian, mixolydian, etc.

 

[40Hz]

BTW, I think "excellent" is a bit strong for me.

You lost me there Jim. But ok!

 

[bdplaid]

Theory exists to explain what we're hearing, not to dictate what we play.

Now that's profound!

 

[JimmyM]

You lost me there Jim. But ok!

I meant as a player. I'm not excellent...just very very good

 

[40Hz]

I meant as a player. I'm not excellent...just very very good

Ah! That was Whousedtoplay's comment. Not that I disagree.

 

[InsideTrip]

Threads like this one is why I keep returning to TalkBass. Most excellent.

 

[dreamadream99]

My understanding:The "D Dorian" scale, is the C Major scale, starting on D, with all the same notes as C Major

exactly right.

Am I right in thinking that the "Dorian scale" is found in all other Major scales? (and minor too?).

You are right.

is it Dorian "of" another scale?

"Dorian" is the only qualifier you need. "D Dorian" alone dictates which notes are in it. It is redundant to say "D Dorian of C".

then Dorian "of" C Major is Dm?

Not quite. Chords are not scales or modes.

 

[DriesG]

Just my 2 cts... This is how I look at it.

When practicing scales and modes, I'll always play all modes in one key (up and down over two octaves) and then move over to the next key following the circle of fifths: C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db/C#, Gb/F#, B, E, A, D, G.

So, in the key of C, I'll play: C ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, C Lydian etc...

Every mode or "chord scale" has it's own "formula". These are called the 7 diatonic modes, all derived from the basic major ionian scale (or Ist grade up to the VIIth grade).

Imaj7 : Ionian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
IIm7 : Dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
IIIm7 : Phrygian = 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
IVmaj7 : Lydian = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
V7 : Myxolydian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
VIm7 : Aeolian = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
VIIm7b5 : Locrian = 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

Then, you only need to learn the differences (in bold) between ionian and each mode (f.i. dorian : b3, b7 ; Lydian : #4 ...) and you'll be able to play all those modes in all 12 keys, just by moving your left hand to another position on the neck.

For example : C Dorian is IIm7 in the key of Bb (two b's). C Lydian is the IVmaj7 in the key of G (one #)...

Learning scales and modes is a very good excercise to train your left (and right hand) or if you'd like to learn all the notes on the neck (especially when playing over 2 octaves).

Of course there are more then 7 modes or scales, but these are non-diatonic (harmonic minor, diminished, whole tone...). But: learning the diatonic modes is a great starting point.

 

[Acoop]

Dorian is the name they give it but minor is what it is. ...
Research the scale. C=Maj (1), D=min (2), E=min (3), F=Maj (4), G=Dom7 (5), A=min (6), B=dim (7)
Next thing research Relative Minors.
The first degree the scale, (1), and the sixth degree, (6), is its relative minor. All the same notes but, starting on the sixth. ... So the second degree is the relative minor of the forth and the third is the RM of the fifth. ... Stuff like this never changes.
Sit down at the piano, stick to the key of C and explore the CMaj scale, and it is easier to visualize and hear. Then explore chords, the 1,3,5 of every degree of the scale.
Think about it as a musical map. ... If I told you to come to my house you'd have no idea how to get there but, if I showed you on a map, you could.

 

[Whil57]

I played (keyboard)with a bassist, a new player, who was so wrapped up in theory, he couldnt play a root note song. Take Every Breath You Take by the police. He kept trying to analyze the chords and or scale, and insisted on trying to work them all in to the music. I tried to explain to him go for the rhythm first. But nope, he had it in his head already that he had to play the right scale to the right chord at all times. I really wanted to hunt down his teacher (who i do applaud for trying to throw some advanced instruction in) but to me was so inappropriate for a first year player.

 

[Nev375]

I played (keyboard)with a bassist, a new player, who was so wrapped up in theory, he couldnt play a root note song. Take Every Breath You Take by the police. He kept trying to analyze the chords and or scale, and insisted on trying to work them all in to the music. I tried to explain to him go for the rhythm first. But nope, he had it in his head already that he had to play the right scale to the right chord at all times. I really wanted to hunt down his teacher (who i do applaud for trying to throw some advanced instruction in) but to me was so inappropriate for a first year player.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with learning scales and modes early on. I wish I had someone to teach me 20 years ago. Where the teacher went wrong is in not showing him examples of music that DO NOT follow those modes exactly so that he sees them as more of a guideline to modal harmony rather than a rule.

Maybe he thought he knew everything once he got modes down and dropped out the week before he was supposed to get that lesson? Or maybe he just simply asked to know what the modes were and not how he should use them.

Hard to know who to blame in a case like that.

 

[gregmon79]

I want to thank this thread for reminding I know absolutely nothing about playing bass haha it has sparked my intrigue with music theory again. It's kinda nice because I've been in an inspirational rut lately and this just made me want to learn new stuff. Music theory is so weird sometimes. It seems so foreign and over my head but when I sit down and learn some things I realize I already knew it in a way ya know. I just didn't put words to it. But then again, I have SO much to learn still. And I've been playing for close to 20 years. Great thread and thank you for starting it @Robsco, I needed this little push.

I remember one time a buddy of mine, a guitar player, was learning modes at the time and we sat down all night and he taught me what he had learned. But in colors. He made each mode a color and we'd jam and he'd call out a color as we were going along and I would just switch to said color and that's how we stayed together. It was actually one of the coolest musical experiences of my life. It felt so cool to actually GET something in the realm of musical theory.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'll try to be short.

1. I can incorporate all those 12 notes in my bass-line in any(!) kind of music style, as passing, neighbor, escape, etc... notes.
2. What's more, on my fretted bass, I can incorporate more notes due to that bending technique, but...

When we have a question is about a specific mode, any answers like, "learn the chromatic scale" sounds (to me) a little bit ...

What is the major scale - "learn the chromatic scale".
What is the minor scale - "learn the chromatic scale".
What is the difference between minor/major scales - "learn the chromatic scale".
...
...

How to hand a big screen TV on the wall?
If we use the same analogy, "learn the chromatic scale", we will get an answer like,
"Just drill holes in your wall and, maybe(!) you'll find a stud/or studs.

As you can see, the discussion about a simple intro to Modes question moves from the General Forum to some "Off-Topic".

To sum up in simple words.
The chords are are the bones - sceleton. The basic structure of Harmony.
The scales, modes are the meat around those bones.
Chromatic notes with all those embellishments - it's like your cloths, your makeup, etc...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

who was so wrapped up in theory, he couldnt play a root note song.

Any chord theory starts with the ROOT NOTE.
It means, your "bassists" was NOT(!!!) knowledgeable in Music Theory!

 

[Robsco]

Following on from a load of the replies, which have all been fab btw, I feel like I'm having little lightbulb moments every time there's a new reply!

Someone said that the modes are probably a bit more suited to guitarists, and I get that...

But is it for this reason...

A song is played in a key, which has a chord progression, which us bassists can happily find the chord tones for.

But when the guitarist needs a solo, they need to know ALL their options for each chord?

Much in the same way a bass player needs to know the root, 3rd, 5th, and 7th - the modes are really just the full scales that the guitarists will use (more so than the bassist anyway)?

(Still just trying to keep things in simple terms for now).

 

[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. Just to add something.

I TRULY don't understand that playing MODES is a TECHNICAL thing, an exercise to train your left hand, etc...

Do you really think that many hundred years ago, those Modes were discovered/invented/found/etc... in order to train the bass players left (or right) hand?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

you only need to learn the differences (in bold) between ionian and each mode (f.i. dorian : b3, b7 ; Lydian : #4 ...) and you'll be able to play all those modes in all 12 keys

Could you, please, explain to me how "learning the one and only chromatic scale" helps you or anybody else to learn those differences between each mode?

 

[Mushroo]

Following on from a load of the replies, which have all been fab btw, I feel like I'm having little lightbulb moments every time there's a new reply!

Someone said that the modes are probably a bit more suited to guitarists, and I get that...

But is it for this reason...

A song is played in a key, which has a chord progression, which us bassists can happily find the chord tones for.

But when the guitarist needs a solo, they need to know ALL their options for each chord?

Much in the same way a bass player needs to know the root, 3rd, 5th, and 7th - the modes are really just the full scales that the guitarists will use (more so than the bassist anyway)?

(Still just trying to keep things in simple terms for now).

There are certainly some guitarists (and even a few bassists!) who think that way. For example, consider the chord progression Gmaj - Cmaj - Dmaj. Some musicians would hear that progression and think "G Ionian mode, C Lydian mode, D Mixolydian mode," and they wouldn't be wrong. However, that is overcomplicating things in my opinion. Most musicians I know simply think of that progression as "I-IV-V in G" and modal thinking doesn't enter into the equation.