This Dorian scale

[AngelCrusher]

OP, sounds like you are new to this. I would strongly suggest learning chord tones first. Then learn their extensions. You can not go wrong starting with chord tones. The modes will make a ton more sense once you have those down.

Additionally, chord tunes lend themselves to chromaticsm. The reason is because you really start to engrain the chord degrees into your head. So you will know how playing a b3 into a natural 3 on a major7 sounds. In fact, you will hear things like b3-3-4-5 walkups on a maj 7 and natural 11 to #11 on minor 7ths in your head and will know exactly what you want to do over whichever chord you are playing.

The next level will be playing over say a Cmaj7, and doing your fill based on an Eminor pentatonic. Nice harmonic substitution that may sound a little complex now, but will seem elementary the more you practice.

I would suggest starting on Cmaj7 and learning every diatonic chord across the neck. I would then strongly suggest practicing this over a drone. Play Cmaj7 and play all the chords in that key. Then play Dmin7, and continue to practice all your chords in the key of Cmaj 7 over it. This will help your ears grow immensely and when you finally get to modes, they will be so much easier to understand.

 

[Robsco]

I am focusing on those, but I don't like "black magic" lurking in the background.

Modes for me right now is bedtime reading.

 

[AngelCrusher]

I am focusing on those, but I don't like "black magic" lurking in the background.

Modes for me right now is bedtime reading.

Not sure what you mean by black magic, but a lot of this stuff will make a lot more sense if you practice over static chords so you can hear what is going on.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Here is an hour and a half of modal vamps to improvise over.

modal backing tracks - Bing video

The droning signature chord can be heard in the above video. Modal harmony does not resolve to the tonic center of the key, as in a chord progression. Modal harmony (the vamp) sustains the modal sound, giving you something to play your mode over.

Have fun.

 

[Whil57]

I'm not sure how i feel about your term "key". Key can be used to simplify writing a chart- but sometimes people get the function wrong. Some pieces change key every few bars. You could say a D dorian is in C maj for ease of writing- but the function of the chord changes is what gives the mode flavor.
Many songs we play can be thrown into a one key category- but sometimes that answer is only for that song. We tend to look for the quickest answer to what to play for say a blues in C. We might look for the fastest approach. Play a C blues scale, play an alternate minor. Thats quick and easy. A master player might change keys and substitute chord changes in his head, only to get to the resolve later on, and it works.

 

[Mushroo]

I'm not sure how i feel about your term "key". Key can be used to simplify writing a chart- but sometimes people get the function wrong. Some pieces change key every few bars. You could say a D dorian is in C maj for ease of writing- but the function of the chord changes is what gives the mode flavor.
Many songs we play can be thrown into a one key category- but sometimes that answer is only for that song. We tend to look for the quickest answer to what to play for say a blues in C. We might look for the fastest approach. Play a C blues scale, play an alternate minor. Thats quick and easy. A master player might change keys and substitute chord changes in his head, only to get to the resolve later on, and it works.

A great way to clarify the concept of "key" is to look at famous songs/compositions with the key in the title, like Bach's "Prelude in G Major," Beethoven's "C Minor Symphony," etc. Studying real music will make it clear that the key signature is just a starting point and help clarify what it means when we say a song is "in" a particular key.

12 major keys. 12 minor keys. Infinite possibilities!

 

[MalcolmAmos]

I'm not sure how I feel about your term "key". Key can be used to simplify writing a chart- but sometimes people get the function wrong. Some pieces change key every few bars.

As you mentioned later in your post, the master musician will come home sooner or later.

The way I see it; keys give us a range of sound to work from.

It's OK to go out of key if you come back in. It's OK to take little side trips, but, get back on the main trail, don't stay out and get lost. Come back to the same trail everyone else is using.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. The chromatic scale plot thickens.

Anyway.
Here is an interesting TB thread, "Learning Chords vs. Scales".
Learning Chords Vs. Scales for beginners

What should I (you, they...) learn first - scales or chords?

What should I learn first — Chords or Scales?
What should I learn first — Chords or Scales?

"Actually, those two misconceptions could not be further from the truth. Learning scales is extremely useful because if you only limit yourself to playing standard chords you will never break out of the ordinary. You MUST connect your chords with scales. If you need a literal example, most would agree that no one was better at mixing chords with scales than Jimi Hendrix.
Learning scales will only enhance your understanding of music theory, therefore making you a stronger musician. Scales are there to support your melodies, arrangements, harmonies, but by no means a substitution for inspiration.
Simply put, lack of understanding of scales will foolishly force to erratically wander around the fretboard for years until you unconsciously learn to find the strong notes. However, with scales you can discover the "strong notes" in weeks or months.
The traditional response is scales first, chords second. However, some innovative guitar teachers are actually preaching the exact opposite. The theory for the later is that scales actually complement chords. Because the scale is defined by its root note, the chords are hidden inside the scale and by learning chords first you will in turn know more about the scale.
Truthfully, learning chords or scales first might come down to personal preference (if you're self-taught) or the decision of your private instructor. The order is important, but not nearly important as making sure that you learn both scales and chords efficiently. They both matter, so take the time to learn them!"

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Let's continue with that "what came first - the scales/Modes or chords" question.
Human Musical History has answered that question already.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

You could say a D dorian is in C maj for ease of writing- but the function of the chord changes is what gives the mode flavor.

Maybe, you could help me?
I'd like to know how the "chord (vertical structure) changes give" the horizontal Dorian Mode its flavor?

Dorian mode - Wikipedia

The modern Dorian mode (also called "Russian minor" by Balakirev[9]), by contrast, is a strictly diatonic scale corresponding to the white keys of the piano from "D" to "D", or any transposition of its interval pattern, which has the ascending pattern of:
Whole step - Half step - Whole step - Whole step - Whole step - Half step - Whole step
or abbreviated:
W-H-W-W-W-H-W
Alternatively:
Tone - Semitone - Tone - Tone - Tone - Semitone - Tone
or
T-S-T-T-T-S-T.
It can also be thought of as a scale with a minor third and seventh, a major second and sixth, and a Invalid Link Removed and fifth, notated relative to the major scale as:

• 1 2 ♭3 4 5 6 ♭7 8

Understanding Modal Harmony: Building Chords from Modes | Hub Guitar
"For instance, in the Dorian mode, the natural 6th is the characteristic pitch. That's because it is the only minor mode with a natural sixth."
Dorian Vamp

• Imin6, IV9; both chords contain characteristic pitch.
• In C Dorian: Cmin6, F9.

 

[DriesG]

Could you, please, explain to me how "learning the one and only chromatic scale" helps you or anybody else to learn those differences between each mode?

I can't explain that because I've never mentioned the chromatic scale.

If you take a look at my earlier post, you'll find diatonic scales. They're made of 7 notes (like the regular major scale). The chromatic scale are all 12 notes in one octave, which is something completely different.

 

[DriesG]

Do you really think that many hundred years ago, those Modes were discovered/invented/found/etc... in order to train the bass players left (or right) hand?

When studying or during practice, I'll always try to make music out of the excercises I'm working on. Because that's what we do! I mean, if you're practicing a scale, why wouldn't you be aware of the tone, tempo, rhythm or technique in left and/or right hand (e.g. fingers or pic, palm mute, left hand muting etc). Of course, scales weren't invented to train our bass playing, but you can study music theory on your bass and make it sound good at the same time. ;-)

 

[Groove Doctor]

Modes Simplified

Major scale = Ionian
Major scale with #4 = Lydian
Major scale with b7 = Mixolydian

Minor Scale (Natural minor) = Aeolian
Minor Scale with natural 6th = Dorian
Minor Scale with b2 = Phrygian

 

[DriesG]

Maybe, you could help me?
I'd like to know how the "chord (vertical structure) changes give" the horizontal Dorian Mode its flavor?

"For instance, in the Dorian mode, the natural 6th is the characteristic pitch. That's because it is the only minor mode with a natural sixth."

I'll give it a shot. ;-) I'm sorry if this gets overcomplicated...

In the dorian mode, the natural 6 makes it sound - or give it that typical flavor - "dorian". It gives a nice added colour to the dorian scale and chord.
In natural minor, that 6th note is a flat 6. That b6 clashes with the other chord tones.

So for example here are two scales/modes in the key of C:
C dorian : C D Eb F G A Bb
C aeolian : C D Eb F G Ab Bb

The only difference between dorian and aeolian is the flat 6 in the dorian mode.

(This might go a bit further into theory, but's it's important to understand how these modes are being used in say a chord progression (like in a jazz standard)...)

Every scale/mode has a correspondant chord. Basically, those chords are made by stacking the chords from the root in thirds: first, third, fifth, seventh and above those the nine, eleven and thirteen (also calles "upper structure").

So the notes for the C dorian chord (with upper structure) are : C, Eb, G, Bb, D, F, A

Or written in functions : Dorian chord is 1 b3 5 b7 T9 T11 T13.

This can be written as the dorian chord scale in chord tones, tensions and passing tones (avoid notes): 1 T9 b3 T11 5 T13 b7.

Aeolian chord scale : 1 T9 b3 T11 5 sb6 b7.

Here, the 6 is a flat 6. it's not a tension, but becomes an avoid note/passing tone.

In this context it's called the sb6 ('scale flat 6'). It lays half a step above the 5th, making it a so called avoid note.

It doesn't sound nice when added to the chord, but you can use it as a passing tone to resolve to one of the chord tones (b6 wants to resolve to the 5th, half a tone lower).

So in short: every chord scale has chord tones (1, 3, 5 and 7) and tensions/passing tones (9, 11, 13).
In the diatonic modes, chord tones can be natural or flat. Tensions and/or avoid notes can be flat, natural or even sharp.

To me, music theory expands my thinking about the music I'm playing. It always stands in function of the music or song. Understanding basic modal harmony gave me inspiration for years!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'll give it a shot. ;-) I'm sorry if this gets overcomplicated...

In the dorian mode, the natural 6 makes it sound - or give it that typical flavor - "dorian". It gives a nice added colour to the dorian scale and chord.
In natural minor, that 6th note is a flat 6. That b6 clashes with the other chord tones.

So for example here are two scales/modes in the key of C:
C dorian : C D Eb F G A Bb
C aeolian : C D Eb F G Ab Bb

The only difference between dorian and aeolian is the flat 6 in the dorian mode.

(This might go a bit further into theory, but's it's important to understand how these modes are being used in say a chord progression (like in a jazz standard)...)

Every scale/mode has a correspondant chord. Basically, those chords are made by stacking the chords from the root in thirds: first, third, fifth, seventh and above those the nine, eleven and thirteen (also calles "upper structure").

So the notes for the C dorian chord (with upper structure) are : C, Eb, G, Bb, D, F, A

Or written in functions : Dorian chord is 1 b3 5 b7 T9 T11 T13.

This can be written as the dorian chord scale in chord tones, tensions and passing tones (avoid notes): 1 T9 b3 T11 5 T13 b7.

Aeolian chord scale : 1 T9 b3 T11 5 sb6 b7.

Here, the 6 is a flat 6. it's not a tension, but becomes an avoid note/passing tone.

In this context it's called the sb6 ('scale flat 6'). It lays half a step above the 5th, making it a so called avoid note.

It doesn't sound nice when added to the chord, but you can use it as a passing tone to resolve to one of the chord tones (b6 wants to resolve to the 5th, half a tone lower).

So in short: every chord scale has chord tones (1, 3, 5 and 7) and tensions/passing tones (9, 11, 13).
In the diatonic modes, chord tones can be natural or flat. Tensions and/or avoid notes can be flat, natural or even sharp.

To me, music theory expands my thinking about the music I'm playing. It always stands in function of the music or song. Understanding basic modal harmony gave me inspiration for years!

Sorry for my confused question.
It was a rhetorical question.

Thank you for your answer. I hope it could provide a lot of knowledge for beginner bass players.
I've commented too much about Modes and have posted too much Information about Modes here at TB.

Just one thread to start.
Modes - am I getting this right?

A sticky about Modes?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The following pop song has only two chords - Emin7 and A7 (or just Emin/A)

If I had not been "hardened" at TB, I would have easily said, "It's the Dorian Mode" with two sharps in the key (D major), but...
Now I must notate it as in E minor with one sharp and use some accidentals (C#).

 

[Groove Master]

Hi all,

After a year on-and-off the bass, I've finally decided to do it "properly" so starting the theory, with the aim to be able to improvise at will.

I'm about to start gigging (we've got 12 songs nailed so far), but I want to be able to do more than just play other songs.

I'm going through online material, etc. but always prefer to have a 2-way conversation about things to make sure I've completely nailed a concept.

First question I have, and please fix my terminology too:

My understanding:The "D Dorian" scale, is the C Major scale, starting on D, with all the same notes as C Major.

Am I right in thinking that the "Dorian scale" is found in all other Major scales? (and minor too?). Some articles I read make a point of saying "D Dorian".

ie, Dorian of G Major starts on an A, but uses the same notes as G Major.

Is my terminology correct? is it Dorian "of" another scale? or "from" another scale", etc.?

My next thought is, if Dorian from C Major starts on the D, and the 2nd chord from C Major is Dm, then Dorian "of" C Major is Dm? is there a common relationship like this, or am I talking absolute tripe?

Thanks,
Rob

The main thing to remember and to clarify your thoughts is that a Dorian mode will always have the same construction of half-steps and whole-steps:

W-H-W-W-W-H-W

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It's a slow Monday morning; therefore, a few slow questions about the Dorian mode.
(It is more about improvisation, not the bass comping.)

We have two chord progression/vamp - Dmin/G or Dmin7/G7.
Do you play the notes from the C major scale (Ionian) or from the Dorian mode?
How do you know if it's Dorian or Ionian you play?
P.S. One of my amateur rules for the "beginner improvisation" startup is, "Do not start your soloing on the chord root."

If after some time, that two chord progression - resolves into C major, do you change your notes from Dorian to Ionian?
What note is important to Dorian that separates it from the D natural minor?
Maybe B natural? But some jazzists reckon that 6th as an "avoid note" due to that tritone interval in Dmin7 -F and B.
Does that "avoid" issue affect your choice of soloing notes?
If you start incorporating some chromatic notes with Dorian, do you still play the Dorian mode?

 

[Russell L]

Well, you can certainly use the Dorian scale steps as passing notes from chord to chord when playing a normal bass line, root to root. Likewise with chromatic tones. But they can be used in licks also, certainly in a solo. If you're already playing Dorian the chromatics are just passing tones within what you're already doing.

I know what JimmyM was trying to say as well. Ultimately, and hopefully, your ear can tell you what notes to play or not play. Like, if you hit a major third during a minor chord you know that ain't right. Hopefully you've listened enough to feel what doesn't work, whether or not you understand the theory of it.

Listen to some Santana solos when the key is minor. Pretty much Dorian. Say, Black Magic Woman, for instance. I'd say most minor rock solos are Dorian, not all, though.
Thing is, you don't wanna have to think about it so much while you're playing. Learn the theory, understand it, practice it, and then when playing forget about it.

Personally, I like patterns. When playing I don't think about the note names or their interval so much, just the pattern that I've come to recognize from studying beforehand. Of course, I know what they are, though, and once in awhile I will "think" some, too. Just get used to the sound of Dorian and see the pattern on the fingerboard. Then your ear should take you the rest of the way. Also, you don't have to play the scale just up and down. Learn to jump around among the intervals

(I didn't read every single post, so I apologize if I said anything that's already been said).

 

[Whousedtoplay]

N.B It's not about the role a comping bass line - it's about taking some baby steps towards "improvisation".

If I play ascending C - E - G and A notes (like arpeggiating C6) with Dmin7 , and end on B with G7, what mode am I playing?
What if I play ascending E - G - A and C (Amin7) with Dmin7 and end on D with G7 - what mode am I using?
What if I play ascending G - A - C and D with Dmin7, and continue E and B with G7 - what mode am I playing?