Double Bass Those Other Clefs..

[jasonrp]

Tried the search first.

I've been learning to read bass clef for a while now and I've noticed that there are quite a few places that say the bass arrangements may only be in treble clef and you are expected to understand them. I have yet to find an example of this but I'm also not sure what they are saying. Is it that I should read the treble like a bass clef (meaning use bass clef notes) or something else?

It may be a stupid question but I can't really find an answer to it that I understand

 

[Jeff Elkins]

What is it that you mean when you say "quite a few places"? I'm unsure of your context/where you're seeing these statements.

Any instrument can play music written on any clef--the problem is that a) the notes are represented in different spaces or lines that we learn in our original clef, and b) different clefs are used for different ranges of notes. In other words, working your way up your scales on the bass will eventually move you into notes above the staff that have many extra lines under them; alternately, once across middle C, they could be written in treble clef. Some players and notators find it easier to read in treble clef than to count lines. I do.
There's a song in a chart I have right now that includes notes up to the 17th fret on my g-string. It would read easier (to me) if it were in treble clef.

 

[jasonrp]

I shouldn't have said "quite" a few but I have seen it in several books I own and a few places online.

So what you are saying is that they overlap one another if you go high enough and knowing the treble would just make it easier to read?

 

[Mike Goodbar]

Yes, you should read the notes as specific to that clef. For instance, middle C in bass clef is noted as one ledger line above the staff. The same note in treble clef is one ledger line below the staff. It should be played as the same note.

For the composer/editor, it comes down to how many ledger lines you want to use. In the solo repertoire, generally speaking, the range goes well above what would be reasonable to read in bass clef (unless "8va" is noted), and you'll see a combination of bass, tenor and treble clef. I have one version of the Bottesini that is noted almost entirely in bass clef with the notation that it should be played one octave higher.

I tell my students to become fluent in all the clefs (I've even forced myself to learn alto, since my daughter plays viola). There are no tricks to learning them...you just gotta do it.

 

[lcpierce]

Yes, you should read the notes as specific to that clef. For instance, middle C in bass clef is noted as one ledger line above the staff. The same note in treble clef is one ledger line below the staff. It should be played as the same note.

For the composer/editor, it comes down to how many ledger lines you want to use. In the solo repertoire, generally speaking, the range goes well above what would be reasonable to read in bass clef (unless "8va" is noted), and you'll see a combination of bass, tenor and treble clef. I have one version of the Bottesini that is noted almost entirely in bass clef with the notation that it should be played one octave higher.

I tell my students to become fluent in all the clefs (I've even forced myself to learn alto, since my daughter plays viola). There are no tricks to learning them...you just gotta do it.

Just wanted to second all of the above. It used to be incredibly confusing for me to figure out how the notes translated between treble and bass clef specifically, but Mike explained it very well.

Learning bass, treble, and tenor clef is essential in my opinion. The majority of my students hate learning other clefs, but there are so many pieces that require we read in other clefs. What helped me was just diving in and playing pieces that were either in an entirely different clef (the Eccles Sonata is one) or alternated between a couple (certain versions of the Bottesini Elegy alternate quite a bit).

Also, finding notes that you can easily remember. For example, the first ledger line above the staff in tenor clef is the octave G harmonic our G string. The top space is a D. I memorized those two notes and from there, I was able to fill in the gaps and gradually read the clef fluently.

 

[MikeCanada]

Well put everyone. I would also point out that learning the other clefs, especially treble clef, is extremely useful in other genres as well. Quite often jazz, folk, pop etc. is notated as a "lead sheet" with the melody written in treble clef, chords above, and lyrics (if applicable) below. While you could just follow along playing changes it is often beneficial to be able to play something complimenting the melody, or incorporate it into a solo which becomes a lot easier if you can read it.

They can also be used as a different way to approach reading music for transposing instruments at pitch. Instead of thinking "everything is up/down this interval" you can just look at it as "everything is in this clef" and shift by an octave or two.

 

[jasonrp]

Maybe the lead sheet is what my books were talking about. I'd love to find a diagram with all the clefs stacked on top of each other so I could just learn one large block of notes and break it up into the parts I need when I need them. Google is calling me.

Thanks to everyone for the replies. My music reading could be called begginer at best so sometimes the hardest part for me is figuring out how to ask questions in a way that makes sense to anyone.

 

[MikeCanada]

I'm not finding what you are looking for, but my google image skills aren't that great so I will try to explain in a few too many words.

Each type of clef has some sort of centre that defines the note on one particular line. With what you are used to calling a bass clef, it is the : and the line that goes through the middle of the dots is an F, in this case the one below middle C. When you are playing bass this is the F on your D string. To make things slightly more complicated, the bass actually sounds an octave lower than it is written, so "middle C" as a bass player is the first C on your top string, but real middle C is an octave higher than that. It is written this way so all of the low notes we typically play aren't a million ledger lines below the staff.

In the treble clef, the swirl inside the clef is around the G above middle C. With different fonts/writing styles this isn't always as obvious as the bass clef. The alto and tenor clefs are sometimes called "K" clefs because one of the less stylized ways of writing them is basically a K with the middle of the K being middle C.

Those are the 4 most common clefs, and as a bass player you should really be comfortable with the bass, treble, and tenor. Viola is pretty much the only modern western instrument that uses the alto clef, although it is used for viol/gamba music and some unconventional writing styles as well. To be perfectly honest, the majority of the time you will be using the tenor clef is in solo and very rarely orchestral repertoire when the notes are getting into too many ledger lines above the staff for the bass clef. For that reason my reading in the bottom half of the tenor clef is pretty shaky because typically when it gets lower than middle C you go back to bass clef. Treble clef is very useful for reading melodies, lead sheets, and the solo/orchestra stuff that gets up there.

There are different ways to learn what the notes are and what lines and spaces they go on. Starting at the bottom of the bass clef the lines can be remembered as "Good Boys Deserve Fudge Always" and the spaces as "All Cows Eat Grass" with the treble clef being "Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge" for lines and "FACE" for spaces, and I am sure there are some other different sayings that people use. I am pretty sure there are some apps you can get for your phone that give you little exercises for learning them as well.

Hopefully that makes some sense and helps a bit.

If that hurt your brain this is a good place to stop.

If not, each of the three types of clefs above can be classified as F,G, and C clefs. The bass clef is an F clef because the : indicates where the F is, the treble G, and the alto and tenor C. As demonstrated by the alto and tenor clefs being essentially the same clef just moved up or down a line, the same thing can be done with all the other clefs. The most common occurrences of this is the C clefs moving, where the soprano clef is with the middle of the clef (middle C) as the bottom line on the staff, mezzo soprano is the second line from the bottom, alto is the middle line, tenor is the second from the top, and baritone is the top line. Again, you will only really see these in some editions of choir or viol music or the occasional theory exercise, but they are out there. As I mentioned earlier, this is how some people transpose and is helpful for reading orchestra/band scores with parts in different keys for different instruments.

 

[jasonrp]

By "Middle C" do you mean the piano middle C? Also, If I see something written in treble (assuming I know the notes) do I just play an octave higher since my octave C is a low C on treble?

 

[MikeCanada]

Middle C is the C one ledger line above the bass clef and one ledger line below the treble clef. If you have a piano system of treble and bass clef, it is in the middle. The note you are thinking about as middle C on a piano is the same middle C across all instruments (when properly transposed) and is used as one of a few different reference points to help people figure out what octave the notes should be played in. There are a few different systems such as (A) SPN that identifies middle C as C4, with C3 being an octave below and C5 being an octave above, and others where upper and lower case letters are used with a series of (,, , ' ") to indicate octave.

When you are playing music written for bass unless otherwise specified, absolutely everything sounds an octave lower than it is written. The first C on your top string is middle C on bass, but sounds an octave lower than "real" middle C. As previously mentioned this is to avoid excessive ledger lines. Occasionally you will see a bass clef with a little 8 below it indicating that it is transposed down an octave, but this isn't really standard because it is just assumed. If the composer/arranger wants to hear everything "at pitch" then there will typically be an "8va" above either the clef or as a bracket over a particular phrase in the music.

To answer your question more directly, if you see something written in treble clef you assume that the middle C one ledger line below the staff is the first C on your top string unless otherwise specified. When transitioning between clefs, this means you can get progressively higher without having to read too many ledger lines, as middle C is one ledger line above the bass clef, the second line from the top of the tenor clef, the middle line of the alto clef, and one ledger line below the treble clef. To give you a different idea of how that works if your top string is tuned to a G, it would be the top space of the bass clef, the second space from the bottom of the tenor clef, the bottom space of the alto clef, and below the second ledger line below the treble clef. In the bass clef you only have a 4th above your G string before you start getting into ledger lines, but in the treble clef you can go two octaves higher than your G string before you are into ledger lines.

Similar transposition systems are used for different instruments/voices. Vocal music written for a tenor or baritone voice is often notated in the treble clef, but you sing it an octave lower than written. If you are curious about the history of western music notation there was a time where instead of 5 line staves and clefs there were just more and more lines added on either side of middle C, and many other solutions as to how we communicate pitch and note duration. While you can get a lot of information from how we currently write western music, there are limitations on what it can do and other cultures/time periods use different systems.

 

[turf3]

I've almost always played music from fairly recent printings (say, music printed after the late 1800s - yes, the music itself might have been composed in 1650, but the printing was much more recent). A few months ago I searched for and found the original printed version of a sonata by Gaillard my teacher had me working on, originally written for bassoon and originally published in 1733 or so.

Apparently whoever did the copying for engraving was allergic to ledger lines. They were using C clefs, and pretty much every time a ledger line would have been indicated, they shifted the C clef to another line on the staff. Then occasionally they would pull up the F bass clef. (I don't think they ever used the G treble clef.) There were spots in the piece where the clef shifted every two measures!

I cannot imagine sightreading something like this. But I suppose if you were used to it, you would automatically check the clef every measure. Does anyone know if this was standard copyist practice back in the day, or was it just the individual copyist?

 

[neilG]

Double bassists don't have it so bad. I also play bass viol, for which I need to be able to read octave treble, alto, tenor, soprano and bass clef. Sometimes I have no idea what note I'm playing.

 

[Les Fret]

For the composer/editor, it comes down to how many ledger lines you want to use. In the solo repertoire, generally speaking, the range goes well above what would be reasonable to read in bass clef (unless "8va" is noted), and you'll see a combination of bass, tenor and treble clef.

You are right but there is no real need to use more than one clef. One could just as well use the bass clef and use 8va for the higher notes. They do that on guitar and violin as well. There is only one clef to read for those instruments. To me that makes the most sense and is the easiest to read. I can read very well in the treble clef also but it is the constant switching between clefs that annoys me sometimes. Also this spoils the logical visual aspect of notes going up and down and sometimes you forget what the clef was and you have to look back in the score. For a composer/arranger I don't see any need to use the tenor clef at all. You could just as well use the 8va sign or the treble clef. You see this more and more in recent editions. Seems like the tenor clef is used more in older editions and books. So I am for banning the tenor clef all together!

 

[jasonrp]

Hate to revive but I don't think the OP will mind. I found a site with the treble stacked on the bass clef with the mid C and copied it down. It sounds strange but now if I write a line or copy down a lesson, I add the middle C ledger line. I wont say I'm great at it yet but it has drastically helped me with understanding the notes on both clefs. For instance, I've been using a theory site and copying some of the lessons down. To get my chops up on treble, I'll write out the clef with the low c ledger line added. The whole site is in treble so every other line I drop down to bass clef and the high C ledger line too.

Strange, but it has helped me a lot. Just seeing the connection helps me remember...for some reason