Three Fingers (again?)

[wishface]

you can't separate the two fingers though, they are connected. I don't find much value in this exercise since i cannot use my finger while holding the coin.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

you can't separate the two fingers though, they are connected. I don't find much value in this exercise since i cannot use my finger while holding the coin.

Of course you can seperate your finger use, typists do it when they type, piano players do it etc.
What you may find is you cannot move your fingers as you did before, and so you cannot play as well as you can....but that is the purpose of the exercise to help free up this ring finger motion by restricting the little finger, by giving it something to hold on to.

Now check out the picture, notice the little finger hook next to the three valves....it purpose when used is to restrict the influence of little finger on the ring finger when playing.
It also offers support, as does the two lower rings, in this instrument a thumb hook and ring finger ring, in an adjustable slider.... again one is an option for the ringfinger, the other for the thumb, you do not have to use them....you could even use one for the little/fore finger if so desired.

The idea of the little finger holding something while playing is an old idea, but now it can be used on bass if need be.
Like the finger grab that became a thumb rest, its there to use if you feel the need to, but your fingers can and do move independant of each other...look at the fretting hand.
It may be slow at first, but that is the nature of learning anything.

 

[wishface]

but the finger motions are different. That's the issue.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

but the finger motions are different. That's the issue.

What does that mean,"the motion is different"?

If you mean that playing the valves on a trumpet is different to playing a bass, then you are wrong...the motion is the same, the application is different.
If you mean the motion picture of each finger is different, then that is the definition of "finger independence".

Quick rererence, i trained on brass instruments, in the 60s & 70s, when i picked up a bass i had no fretting hand issues at all, i just picked up the bass and played...and i plucked with three fingers, not a problem, in fact i did not even realise it until it was pointed out to me.
Another reverence, i have never a pianist that could not techincally play a bass first time..again they have the finger motion, but never applied it to bass

I get where you are coming from, but you need to trust is practice to help you develop styles, dexterity, stamina and techniques....techniques come from a necessity of needing them, as a rule anyone struggling with a technique may not really need it, it is more for vanity than practicality.....i know because i realised the reason i could not develop a slap technique was because i didn't need one.

 

[Icemanaroonie]

What does that mean,"the motion is different"?

If you mean that playing the valves on a trumpet is different to playing a bass, then you are wrong...the motion is the same, the application is different.
If you mean the motion picture of each finger is different, then that is the definition of "finger independence".

Quick rererence, i trained on brass instruments, in the 60s & 70s, when i picked up a bass i had no fretting hand issues at all, i just picked up the bass and played...and i plucked with three fingers, not a problem, in fct i did mot even realise it untill it was pointed out to me.
Another reverence, i have never a pianist that could not techincally play a bass first time..again they have the finger motion, but never applied it to bass

I get where you are coming from, but you need to trust is practice to help you develop styles, dexterity, stamina and techniques....techniques come from a necessity of needing them, as a rule anyone struggling with a technique may not really need it, it is more for vanity than practicality.....i know because i realised the reason i could not develop a slap technique was because i didn't need one.

I agree. The reason I got to where I am with a three-finger technique is because it's the only way I can play what I hear in my head, while I'm playing in the band I'm in.

 

[Cup]

I used to be in the same position as you but have gotten quite good at using 3 fingers. It's awkward at first and takes time but keep at it and you'll find 3 finger technique become viable in a couple of months. The biggest problem I had was that i'd get tangled up with my fingers when playing something that involved lots of string skipping. Practicing not to accenting every third note is important as well. It's worth it though, once you get it down you'll find that you can play faster and for longer. It also makes a lot more sense to play a song like "The Trooper" with three fingers instead of 2

 

[wishface]

What does that mean,"the motion is different"?

If you mean that playing the valves on a trumpet is different to playing a bass, then you are wrong...the motion is the same, the application is different.
If you mean the motion picture of each finger is different, then that is the definition of "finger independence".

Quick rererence, i trained on brass instruments, in the 60s & 70s, when i picked up a bass i had no fretting hand issues at all, i just picked up the bass and played...and i plucked with three fingers, not a problem, in fact i did not even realise it until it was pointed out to me.
Another reverence, i have never a pianist that could not techincally play a bass first time..again they have the finger motion, but never applied it to bass

I get where you are coming from, but you need to trust is practice to help you develop styles, dexterity, stamina and techniques....techniques come from a necessity of needing them, as a rule anyone struggling with a technique may not really need it, it is more for vanity than practicality.....i know because i realised the reason i could not develop a slap technique was because i didn't need one.

I don't think the motion is the same. On a trumpet you are just pressing the valve down. On a bass I have a different motion because I have to pluck a string cleanly. The stress on the finger is made more difficult when crossing strings, which is why i gave the example above.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I don't think the motion is the same. On a trumpet you are just pressing the valve down. On a bass I have a different motion because I have to pluck a string cleanly. The stress on the finger is made more difficult when crossing strings, which is why i gave the example above.

There in lies your particular issue with using your fingers, you do not understand the mechanics involved.
Regardless of use, that is how you apply it, the motion to move the fingers begins in the brain, you make a concious thought of what you want to happen.
This becomes an electrical signal that travels the nerves to the forearm, this signal will either activate the finger extentors/flexors muscles, which will contract and relax to give the movememt you need.

If you understand that muscles can only contract, so that is pull, so the muscles work in antagonistic pairs to make motion then when you pluck a bass you pull on the stings, when you play a trumpet you pull down on the valves.
To loft the fingers off the valves or away from the strings, the finger are pulled away.
So to push down a valve a muscle comtracts and pull down the finger, to pluck a string, the muscles comtract and pull down the finger.
To lift off either a valve or strings a muscle contracts and pulls the finger back away from it.

On a bass when you play, the muscles pull the fingers back and forth, that is the muscle motion for everyone...no exceptions, so is is seen as pulling on the strings.
On a trumpet that exact same motion is see as pushing down the valves.
Piano players have the same motion in their fingers as bass player, but they can also raise and lower their forearm, again this is pulling motion, to had/remove weight to their playing.
This is pulling motion is heard as attack, so the playing can be louder or quieter by how hard the keys are hit.

Again on the bass this pulling motion is plucking, so the harder we pluck the louder the notes, the softer we pluck the quieter the notes....but the reality is attack, the attack not only gives volume it gives tone as well.

Everthing i have mentioned above comes from the same muscle motions called voluntarily muscle stimulation, you think it and it happens.
In-voluntary muscle stimulation is reaction, it happens without you thinking.
Constant muscle stimulation, is a part of in-voluntartry stimulation, which is neither a reaction or a concious thought it is where muscles make your heart make ot beat beat, or when standing still supports your posture.
In both of these you do not think about it, it happens, when standing still so many muscle groups are working to keep you upright. When someone collapses it is because these signals have been interupped and all the muscle groups supportting posture relax, so the stop pulling, and down we go.

In learning, particularly music, we have to take a leap of faith, that is believe, or invest in learning something we do not fully understand in the hope that one day it will bear fruit.
Techiniques can be seen in this light because we never really know the application in which they will be used, so we work on the motion because we undersatns that regarless of the application the motion will be the same.
If we do not believe in this, or feel their is a better, usually this means faster way to do it without the time and effort, then player always end up back at the start where they were before.
This reinforces the idea that something did not work, so they look again for shortcuts, so they never really move.

Now please remember this part, there will come a time, if not already happened, when you will ask someone to do something.
They will question "Why?"
You will again ask the to do it.
They will offer a different way to do it.
You will say "Just do it the way it always gets done.
This will develop into a convesation about the in's and outs of the job.
You will then say. "If you had just done it when i asked you it would be done by now?"...."it would have been easier if I had done it myself."

Sometimes in life we just have to do the work and accept it will work out in the end, every minute not doing it is a minute further away from reaching the goal, every hour in not doing it is an hour further away from reaching our goal, every day not doing it is a day further away from the goal, every week....and so on.
The longer you put something off the further away the end result.....the more we put off, even in short time, will add up eventually.
Myself and millions like me, went through the route of do the work, but not understand, sometimes not even enjoy it, but it paid of in the end.
For me it was being Orchestrally train from the age of nine years of age to play brass instruments...how could i ever imaging that brass training would mean i would play a bass with ease, that the rudiments and theory of music i was taught would give me a good understanding of song construction, so help me easily break them down to learn and play. So much came from my early years, most of it i could never see, but just doing the work paid out in many different ways.

Last thing, my three finger use was pointed out to me in a recording session by an older player in the early 80s, he did not even ask, he just said "You play trumpet or such like?"
To which i said "Yes sort off played brass in orchestras.......why?"
He replied "You use three finger to play the strings, most people use one or two, or a pick, but you use three because your fingers do not know any better."

 

[wishface]

That's great, but the problem is, I cannot pluck at all with my third finger while holding a coin as suggested. Perhaps my fingers are just not wired that way. Conversely Jaco had big hands and could do things I cannot do because my hands are different

 

[Fergie Fulton]

That's great, but the problem is, I cannot pluck at all with my third finger while holding a coin as suggested. Perhaps my fingers are just not wired that way. Conversely Jaco had big hands and could do things I cannot do because my hands are different

Not sure about why you cannot do it, all fingers are basically the same...even Jaco's..size is not an issue in motion.
Some people have issues because their day to day hand use, or job, makes it harder.
This, again, is why such exercises such as the coin hild work, they help reduce the impact of the shared tendons.

So an exercise i use all the time with players, to see how their little finger is commected with the ring finger is to have them put their hand flat on a flat surface, such as a table, and curl in their little finger and tuck it in to the palm.

Now the ring finger will move with it, but it is how and where the ring finger moves.
Now this is hard to explain on line, but the just of it is.

1/As the little finger moves the ring finger moves with it.
Now this shows very tight tendons sharing, not un-common in those withheavy manual jobs that require a grip or heavy lifting..bricklayer, Carpenter etc.
Also some sports such a cycling, weight lifting, golf, tennis, etc where a good grip of a of a club, raquet etc is used.
This is not hard to eliminate, but will take a bit longer than say someone who does non of these things.

2/ As the little fingers tip passes the the TIP joint on the ring finger (middle one), the ringfinger lifts and shortens at the tip joint on the ringfinger as the little finger passes under to the palm.

This use is normal and shows a good healthy hand.
The ringfinger is supposed to react in this way, its shared tendon use is average and can be worked on, this type of movement requires work, but not as much as in 1/

3/ The little finger curls under and the ring finger does not react.
Independence is there, the tendons are supporting each other but not working the fingers together in unison for strength.

That is the reason the little and ringfinger work together, they work for strength on the Ulnar side of the hand.
They have their own nerve supply, miscles and tendons, seperate from the Radial side of the hand.
The Radial side is for dexterity, so the thumb, fore and middle finger can work independant easier, even the middle finger which sort of bridges both side.
So in the hand we have power and dexterity, but they have side, but they can be trained to do either job...rock climbers for example have power across all fingers in both hands, where as pianist have dexterity across all fingers in both hands.
Bass players, as a rule only have limited dexterity in the fore and middle fingers of the plucking hand, and in the fore, middle and ring fingers of the fretting hand.
Players with a higher finger use will have dexterity extend to the little finger as well because the need of it develops the skill.

So try the table test and see what your hand is about.
Impossible use, would be not being able to move the little finger at all.

I hope this helps you understand your hand use a little better and help you target any weaknesses you may have?

 

[wishface]

I've tried that test, my ring finger moves somewhat in sympathy with the little finger.

THis isn't so much the problem overall though. It's only an issue when I try and hold a coin in the crook of my little finger and play. Doing that completely limits my ring finger. I'm not entirely sure what I'm meant to do with that, since I don't imagine any musical situation requiring I hold a coin

The biggest problems by far are string crossing and playing on the low E string. These both put my ring finger at an angle that makes plucking more difficult and give me less control over the instrument.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I've tried that test, my ring finger moves somewhat in sympathy with the little finger.

THis isn't so much the problem overall though. It's only an issue when I try and hold a coin in the crook of my little finger and play. Doing that completely limits my ring finger. I'm not entirely sure what I'm meant to do with that, since I don't imagine any musical situation requiring I hold a coin

The biggest problems by far are string crossing and playing on the low E string. These both put my ring finger at an angle that makes plucking more difficult and give me less control over the instrument.

Of course it limits your ring finger, but if your ring finger is moving as you say, you can learn better independence.
A simple exercise away from the bass is to hold the coin in the little finger and flex all three remain fingers back and forth will holding the coin. So what you are doing is loosing the tendons to give them a better chance not to restrict finger independece.

As for the coin and any musical situation holding one you are correct there are none.....but your problem is not musical......its physical, as the execise above will show because no bass required.

Check out the clip, check out how still the little finger is.
Also check out the fretting hand, notice the 'Simandl' independence' between the ring and middle finger. As the little finger and ring finger work together there is a clear space to allow them more flexability and range when playing.
This is not a consious decision, it is a result of over 40 years of playing, and if need be all four fingers will work independent, or one finger per fret, if required, again without thought.