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Threshold Shift & Hearing Damage

Jazzdogg

Less barking, more wagging!
When I ran across the tutorial excerpted below on ProSoundWeb, I thought my bass playing brethren might also be interested:

A final point that needs covered on the nature of human hearing is what I call "threshold shift." This is the activation of the muscles in the middle ear as a built in compressor to protect our hearing from continuous loud sounds. If you have ever been to a loud concert than started out unbearable, and then became "glassy" and ok volume wise, and then noticed that the world was REALLY quiet after the show, you have experienced threshold shift.

One thing that, unfortunately, often accompanies the "really quiet" phase is ringing in the ears. Ringing in the ears comes from leaking calcium ducts in the ears, ducts that have been damaged by excessive vibration of the inner ear hairs. When these ducts leak, the brain falsely perceives that the tone range of that particular hair is happening continuously. Ringing in the ears is a clear indication that you have caused acute trauma to your inner ear! Whether or not these trauma repair themselves is a matter of debate, but the damage has been done at least temporarily.

Threshold shift typically takes a matter of minutes to set in. For me it is about 5-10minutes, and typically releases between fifteen and thirty minutes after the exposure. The louder the sound, and the longer the exposure, I find increases the release time.

Threshold shift is the death of good mixing for me. My ability to judge mix balance, and quickly pick up problems frequencies greatly diminishes. Today I threshold shift about 97dBA slow. If I am asked to mix above this level I typically have to alternate songs with my earplugs in, and then out, just to keep my ears out of threshold shift. I suspect that i threshold shift at a lower level than most people, as I am relatively young, and have taken very good care of my ears. Threshold shift is big motivating factor for me to try to mix at moderate levels.

I also suspect that threshold shift is one of the biggest problems between musicians and monitor engineers. A brief soundcheck, short enough to make the monitors seem loud and clear, and not long enough to cause threshold shift, goes well for band an monitor engineer. However, once the show is going, and the band has been subjected to high levels for a more extended period, threshold shift sets in, the sound from the wedges goes to mush in the muso's ears, and all they know to do is ask for more level! This is the crux of so many soundcheck vs. show moments, that I feel this must be a major part of the underlying cause for the problems the musicians experience during the show.


Here's the link:
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,99329.msg928241.html#msg928241
 
That makes a lot of sense. I have always noticed that I have to lower the vocals after a few songs. I always thought it was "warming up", but I wonder if it isn't the threshold kicking in and the singer singing louder to compensate.
 
When I ran across the tutorial excerpted below on ProSoundWeb, I thought my bass playing brethren might also be interested:

A final point that needs covered on the nature of human hearing is what I call "threshold shift." This is the activation of the muscles in the middle ear as a built in compressor to protect our hearing from continuous loud sounds. If you have ever been to a loud concert than started out unbearable, and then became "glassy" and ok volume wise, and then noticed that the world was REALLY quiet after the show, you have experienced threshold shift.

One thing that, unfortunately, often accompanies the "really quiet" phase is ringing in the ears. Ringing in the ears comes from leaking calcium ducts in the ears, ducts that have been damaged by excessive vibration of the inner ear hairs. When these ducts leak, the brain falsely perceives that the tone range of that particular hair is happening continuously. Ringing in the ears is a clear indication that you have caused acute trauma to your inner ear! Whether or not these trauma repair themselves is a matter of debate, but the damage has been done at least temporarily.

Threshold shift typically takes a matter of minutes to set in. For me it is about 5-10minutes, and typically releases between fifteen and thirty minutes after the exposure. The louder the sound, and the longer the exposure, I find increases the release time.

Threshold shift is the death of good mixing for me. My ability to judge mix balance, and quickly pick up problems frequencies greatly diminishes. Today I threshold shift about 97dBA slow. If I am asked to mix above this level I typically have to alternate songs with my earplugs in, and then out, just to keep my ears out of threshold shift. I suspect that i threshold shift at a lower level than most people, as I am relatively young, and have taken very good care of my ears. Threshold shift is big motivating factor for me to try to mix at moderate levels.

I also suspect that threshold shift is one of the biggest problems between musicians and monitor engineers. A brief soundcheck, short enough to make the monitors seem loud and clear, and not long enough to cause threshold shift, goes well for band an monitor engineer. However, once the show is going, and the band has been subjected to high levels for a more extended period, threshold shift sets in, the sound from the wedges goes to mush in the muso's ears, and all they know to do is ask for more level! This is the crux of so many soundcheck vs. show moments, that I feel this must be a major part of the underlying cause for the problems the musicians experience during the show.


Here's the link:
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,99329.msg928241.html#msg928241

All correct, and it's why I put my earplugs in well before I start playing or before the show starts. If you expose your naked ears to loud sounds before you put your plugs in, threshold shifting has already set in and when you put the plugs in, you can't hear.
 
When I ran across the tutorial excerpted below on ProSoundWeb, I thought my bass playing brethren might also be interested:

A final point that needs covered on the nature of human hearing is what I call "threshold shift." This is the activation of the muscles in the middle ear as a built in compressor to protect our hearing from continuous loud sounds. If you have ever been to a loud concert than started out unbearable, and then became "glassy" and ok volume wise, and then noticed that the world was REALLY quiet after the show, you have experienced threshold shift.

One thing that, unfortunately, often accompanies the "really quiet" phase is ringing in the ears. Ringing in the ears comes from leaking calcium ducts in the ears, ducts that have been damaged by excessive vibration of the inner ear hairs. When these ducts leak, the brain falsely perceives that the tone range of that particular hair is happening continuously. Ringing in the ears is a clear indication that you have caused acute trauma to your inner ear! Whether or not these trauma repair themselves is a matter of debate, but the damage has been done at least temporarily.

Threshold shift typically takes a matter of minutes to set in. For me it is about 5-10minutes, and typically releases between fifteen and thirty minutes after the exposure. The louder the sound, and the longer the exposure, I find increases the release time.

Threshold shift is the death of good mixing for me. My ability to judge mix balance, and quickly pick up problems frequencies greatly diminishes. Today I threshold shift about 97dBA slow. If I am asked to mix above this level I typically have to alternate songs with my earplugs in, and then out, just to keep my ears out of threshold shift. I suspect that i threshold shift at a lower level than most people, as I am relatively young, and have taken very good care of my ears. Threshold shift is big motivating factor for me to try to mix at moderate levels.

I also suspect that threshold shift is one of the biggest problems between musicians and monitor engineers. A brief soundcheck, short enough to make the monitors seem loud and clear, and not long enough to cause threshold shift, goes well for band an monitor engineer. However, once the show is going, and the band has been subjected to high levels for a more extended period, threshold shift sets in, the sound from the wedges goes to mush in the muso's ears, and all they know to do is ask for more level! This is the crux of so many soundcheck vs. show moments, that I feel this must be a major part of the underlying cause for the problems the musicians experience during the show.


Here's the link:
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,99329.msg928241.html#msg928241

What you call 'threshold shift'? It has been called that for over 60 years.
 
The other problem is once things get going, the instruments start volume wars and drown out the vocals in the monitor. Arguably also at least partly due to threshold shift. Sometimes its volume wars between instruments, and sometimes its just that you don't think you're as loud as you were earlier, and turn up to get that same satisfying volume, that was unfortunately too loud in the first place and had triggered threshold shift.

Randy
 
I am an audiologist and the information in the tutorial above is a bit shaky at best. I think the important point here is to wear hearing protection. It's very hard to tell how much noise is too much unless you are wearing some kind of dosimeter. Better safe than sorry. Your acoustic reflex is not going to save your hearing. Tinnitus is a very complex animal. The explanation of tinnitus in the tutorial is only one of many theories regarding the physiological causes, which may or may not be correct. Tinnitus, regardless of how you explain the cause, is a sign of damage to your ear/hearing. Also, most temporary shifts will take up to 14 hours to completely resolve, definitely not 30 minutes. Multiple temporary shifts usually result in permanent shifts down the road. Age is not a factor in threshold shift or noise induced hearing loss. Young or old, we are all at risk for hearing loss. Look up OSHA guidelines regarding noise exposure limits to get a rough idea of how this works.
 
I am an audiologist and the information in the tutorial above is a bit shaky at best. I think the important point here is to wear hearing protection. It's very hard to tell how much noise is too much unless you are wearing some kind of dosimeter. Better safe than sorry. Your acoustic reflex is not going to save your hearing. Tinnitus is a very complex animal. The explanation of tinnitus in the tutorial is only one of many theories regarding the physiological causes, which may or may not be correct. Tinnitus, regardless of how you explain the cause, is a sign of damage to your ear/hearing. Also, most temporary shifts will take up to 14 hours to completely resolve, definitely not 30 minutes. Multiple temporary shifts usually result in permanent shifts down the road. Age is not a factor in threshold shift or noise induced hearing loss. Young or old, we are all at risk for hearing loss. Look up OSHA guidelines regarding noise exposure limits to get a rough idea of how this works.

Thanks!

+1 The important part is to prevent hearing damage in the first place.
 
Ya know.

I was thinking about getting bigger monitors to cut through the band noise but this has made me think twice. If I can't hear myself sing through a pair of 12" Mackie Thumps, the band is just too loud.

I'm oldschool, did my damage in the 80s when nobody (in my crowd) used earplugs and I must say tinnitis sucks. To all the young'uns who think they're bulletproof, you are the parent of your future self. Take good care of him or her.
 
Ya know.

I was thinking about getting bigger monitors to cut through the band noise but this has made me think twice. If I can't hear myself sing through a pair of 12" Mackie Thumps, the band is just too loud.

I'm oldschool, did my damage in the 80s when nobody (in my crowd) used earplugs and I must say tinnitis sucks. To all the young'uns who think they're bulletproof, you are the parent of your future self. Take good care of him or her.

+1 on both counts.

I started playing bass later in life, so I still have my hearing ;) I refuse to play volume wars. I have learned to play when I can't hear myself. I don't like it, but I can do it.

But I don't sing. If I did, and the band was too loud, I would just wouldn't sing. :atoz:
 
Look up OSHA guidelines regarding noise exposure limits to get a rough idea of how this works.

Just did this. Good to know I am operating well within their guidelines when I mix. I mix at an average of 90dB, which is permissible for up to 8 hours according to OHSA. The loudest peak I've ever had in any of my mixes was 100dB, and even if that was the average level, the performances rarely exceed a half hour, so I'd still be well within the limits.

Good to know. :)
 
+1 on both counts.

I started playing bass later in life, so I still have my hearing ;) I refuse to play volume wars. I have learned to play when I can't hear myself. I don't like it, but I can do it.

But I don't sing. If I did, and the band was too loud, I would just wouldn't sing. :atoz:

IEM's. When I was doing the singing I NEEDED the IEMs. My singing is of dubious quality at the best of times. It was downright awful using monitors.