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Double Bass thumb position harmonics - when to start

A

avantflow

Mar 16, 2010
29
2
#1
Hi everybody

I have a question about learning thumb position harmonics. I have been playing for almost 4 years and finally got to thumb position. I am very precise about learning the technique learning positions by chromatic steps(one by one) I think its the only way.

I saw that many bass players beginners and experienced ones have trouble hiting harmonics
in thumb positions especially when playing in public. In theory it should be easier to play harmonics because no effort is required to press the string.

So my question is do you think its good to start learning all the thumb position harmonics (including main harmonics position -at the end of fretboard) before
actually learning all the thumb positions.

I would do this to get comfortable with this positions as soon as possible. For me now its no problem to play high harmonics. I check my back that is not hurting, play with bow at the bridge and I get clear sound.

So if you agree with this what literature would you use(maybe even only few bars from some concerto)? I tried lorenziti gavote harmonics part and its pretty easy to play them.
I saw that in method books like Streicher and Bille main harmonics position is explaind
at the end probably with a reason though I heard that Karr's method starts with harmonics.
 
#2
avantflow said:
I am very precise about learning the technique learning positions by chromatic steps(one by one) I think its the only way.
Click to expand...

It's not the only way. In fact, that might be the hardest way to do it.

If you look at the Vance method, the absolute first thing you learn about the bass are the basic positions of certain harmonics. With these as a foundation, you can divide the fingerboard into six positions and go from there.

Rather than looking at harmonics like some kind of extended technique, you could see them as an absolute constant. All basses have the same harmonics, and the spacial and tonal relationship between them is always proportional to itself. Understanding this idea, and implementing it into your own study, means you will better understand all double basses and not just your own instrument.
 
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#3
IMO, using harmonics as the basis for position is a mistake. Too often I see someone playing in thumb position desperately trying to keep track of the octave harmonic, often in a key that doesn't even use that note. Just learn the positions in your preferred way, half or whole step at a time. That way there's fundamentally no difference between thumb positions and neck positions, except for the various spacings of the fingers that are available. You might want to take a look at Petracchi's book at this time. It's crushingly boring but will illustrate the possibilities.
 
#4
avantflow said:
I have been playing for almost 4 years and finally got to thumb position. I am very precise about learning the technique learning positions by chromatic steps(one by one) I think its the only way.
Click to expand...

4 years!!!! I already played in thumb position after two months or so. I think it's better to start playing TP as soon as possible otherwise your TP playing will always stay behind your 'normal' playing and you become 'afraid' of the high notes.

As far as harmonics are concerned I totally agree with everything Paul said. Still most of the time instead of playing the harmonic I prefer to play the normal note instead. Especially in slow passages. Also you can play the harmonic first and then press it to the fingerboard in the same bow. This can be dangerous because the harmonics can have a wider fretboard range when played with the bow and therefor pressing it down on that exact spot can lead to a badly intonated note.
 
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#5
I know there are conservative methods and modern methods for learning, my being more conservative.
I watched rabbath talking about his way and I have Vances first book but never used it.
They have their own right but this is not where I am coming from and teachers I know don't use this method so its a little distant for me.
I did think to try to combine what I know with this ideas.

But my main question is not about different methods of learning not even about thumb position. Its about learning all the TP harmonics seperately and in advance
of usual TP techique. For the thumb positions I plan to study them slowly one by one. Because harmonics are easier to play I was thinking I could start playing them already all around the bass. My teacher said its better to wait.

neilG - I have petracchi's book, I practiced fifths, octaves and ex. 14 for agility of the hand. Other exercises look very hard, would you reccomed me some for beginner in TP.
 
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#6
avantflow said:
But my main question is not about different methods of learning not even about thumb position. Its about learning all the TP harmonics seperately and in advance
of usual TP techique. For the thumb positions I plan to study them slowly one by one. Because harmonics are easier to play I was thinking I could start playing them already all around the bass. My teacher said its better to wait.
Click to expand...
You mean the harmonics at the end of the fingerboard? I don't see why you couldn't learn them at any time, but unless it's in conjunction with a piece or etude that uses them, what would be the point?
neilG - I have petracchi's book, I practiced fifths, octaves and ex. 14 for agility of the hand. Other exercises look very hard, would you reccomed me some for beginner in TP.
Click to expand...
Since you have the book, the simplest thing to do with it would be to only work on one or two positions sat a time. You don't have to play all the exercises all the way through.
 
#7
Sigh. Here we go again.

The harmonics are a wonderful way to train the hand to find the precise location of notes ALL OVER of the neck. Let's try not to rail on systems that we haven't taken the time to actually study, ok?

The Vance system is an incredible asset for our pedagogy. I prefer his books over Rabbath and Simandl et al for newer players. Vance gets you playing music from day one. To OP, there is no better method/ book/ whatever to solve your current problem than the Vance books.

Also, OP, please let go of this "only way" business. There are many paths to success on the bass, but stubbornness is not one of them. FWIW, thumb is actually much easier than the lower positions on a modern setup. The only reason we still view thumb as "advanced" is because the older pedagogy was designed for gut with high action, where this register is incredibly difficult for even seasoned pros.

You see, people were so hung up on the "only way" that they forgot to notice that the instrument itself had modernized, while the pedagogy was still in the prior centuries...
 
#8
I admit I am a little stubborn. By ''only way'' I wanted emphasize that I think is important to take your time and study bass slowly and try to explore every part of it.
When I started playing I wanted to do all the crazy things but soon realized that is better to be modest and learn the technique correctly.
I know there are many paths I just took one that was most available for me. I try to be open minded and take something from everyone no matter
of different bow holds, left hand techiques - its important that it sounds good.

Sorry if I overreacted I didn't mean to insult anyone. So maybe I will try Vances books, I heard only good things about it.
 
#10
It's essential to know where all the harmonics are, in both low and high positions. That's because they're the only reliable fixed points on the instrument; you can move the bridge a few millimeters by accident, and that moves all the notes around by enough to affect your intonation if you are navigating by such points as the neck break or anything on the fingerboard.

The only way you can find the notes is to feel for the harmonics. You don't do this while playing, necessarily, but during your warm-up, so that you know the feel of exactly where the notes are on this particular instrument today. A few wide-ranging scales and arpeggios in a key like A or D in which you can use lots of harmonics (but not played entirely on harmonics) will do it. Using a strobe tuner while doing this to check your intonation is a great idea (not a needle tuner, they're too slow responding and hard to read).

This idea also copes with such things as your clothes changing how your left arm applies to the bass, or hand injuries, or even just having to wear a band-aid while playing.
 
#11
Andrew, I have to categorically and respectfully reject your assertions. Yes, you should KNOW where the harmonics are, but to use them as reference points for everything makes no sense to me. What if the piece I'm playing is in Cb major? What use are harmonics as reference for that? Why would I warm up in A or D in this case? There are better cues to location than the very few harmonics between the nut and the end of the fingerboard.

"The only way you can find the notes is to feel for the harmonics."

I'm not buying it. The ONLY way?
 
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#12
I was perhaps overstating "the only way to find the notes"... but it is true that the harmonics are the only truly fixed framework you have to work in. I'll have a go at explaining better.

So, of course you can't find every note directly with a harmonic. However... how do you know where any note is? How do you adjust your mental model of the space along the fingerboard so you can actually arrive at the right spot? The harmonics are the map and the landmarks. Of course Cb has no notes you can directly find... but if you know where the landmarks are, you can find it, and quickly. Of course you warm up in the keys you're going to use... AFTER you quickly noodle around a bit finding harmonics and how the stopped notes relate to them, which gives you the feel and the map.

The reason they're the only fixed point is physics; the relation between any physical landmark on the instrument and where a note has to be fingered (whether stopped or harmonic) depends on (at least) where the bridge is right now, temperature, and humidity. So it changes from day to day. Whereas, the relation between a harmonic node, which you can feel under your fingertip as you bow a harmonic, and the stopped notes nearby depends on fewer factors and to a lesser extent (mostly temperature). So, by carefully getting the feel of that relationship and where the harmonics themselves are on this particular day, you get your mind calibrated to the instrument. It only takes a minute, and makes quite a big difference to the accuracy of your intonation.

You can of course get this information into your head by other means... carefully listening to scales in your chosen key, for example. But the harmonics trick, at least to me, is more efficient, and goes directly to the root cause rather than skirting around the edges.
 
#13
Good Morning,

The most reliable way to locate a harmonic node is to actually "locate/play" the underlying "closed" (non-harmonic) pitch, over which the harmonic node occurs - (Not the other way around). The location of the harmonic node is theoretically/mathematically exact, but in reality can vary significantly - for example, the first partial of the open G string. Just because you are hovering over, (touching), some portion of that harmonic node, doesn't mean you are in the correct position to play the underlying fundamental pitch in tune. That harmonic node is so "wide", that using it as an exact pitch location indicator, or "landmark", is unreliable, IMHO. (Yes, the higher partials have a smaller, "narrower" harmonic node or "sweet spot", but for the first 4 or 5 partials, the width of the node results in an inexact "landmark").
Thanks for your time, interest and civility.
 
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#14
Thanks Andrew. It's an interesting discussion. During an opera performance today, I payed attention to how I was locating beginning pitches. I say "beginning" because once I've found a note to start, that is the reference point for everything after. I did use the nut and heel break as physical markers, and once in a while took a quick peek at my hand. Generally, I just put my hand on the note cold because I've done it bazillions of times. If we could actually hear ourselves at all times, life would be simpler.
 

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