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Double Bass Thumb position problems

#22
But you know how minimal the contact point is at the fingertip with the string, especially on the e string, I find myself not being able to fully press the
string down.

Do you all experience the same problem?
And would you consider the minimal contact point a drawback of curved fingers?
 
#23
For me, like others have said, collapsed vs. curved varies from finger to finger from hand position to hand position. For instance to play D-E-F-F# on the D string with thumb-1-2-3, curved is natural and comfortable for me, and more importantly, pretty automatically in tune; however, to play D-E-F#-G with thumb-1-2-3, my first finger collapses at the last knuckle, otherwise it is significantly sharp. It depends so much on bass and hand size though, you really need to just do a lot of exploration on your own.

If pressing the string down is a problem, I think you should examine the way your arm as a whole is working. The weight of your arm should be resting on the fingerboard via your finger, as though it was dangling by your side and someone else picked it up and dropped it on the bass. Your arm is more than heavy enough to weigh the string down to the board. I hope this helps, but as always, face-to-face time with a teacher and self-exploration are probably fifty times more effective than anything we basstalkers can tell you.
 
#24
there is a major difference between using "flat fingers" and letting you fingers collapse. les fret, i think you are confusing the two. collapsing is when the finger loses support and the last knuckle bends back (as in the OP's picture). i assure you this never happens in the video you posted. sometimes it is appropriate to go to a flat (but supported) position to achieve a monsterous vibrato, but that is not the same thing. cestari definitely does that to vary the intensity of his vibrato sometimes.

OP - as you build calluses, the issue of smaller surface area on the tip of your finger diminishes.
 
#25
Do others really find that collapsing the finger (letting the middle knuckle lock) produces a better vibrato? For me, letting this knuckle lock makes the finger completely inflexible, which just produces a very stiff, narrow vibrato.

Or is my definition of collapsing the finger different? What do other people define as a "collapsed" finger?
 
#26
¡bassballbill!;9213027 said:
The weight of your arm should be resting on the fingerboard via your finger, as though it was dangling by your side and someone else picked it up and dropped it on the bass. Your arm is more than heavy enough to weigh the string down to the board.
Click to expand...

+1.

Also, one thing i noticed in the OP's pic, at least what it looks like to me, is that the weight of the arm isn't over the finger. When the weight is not over the finger, whether its curved or collapsed, it forces you to use the muscles of the fingers or hand, which are incredibly weak compared to the using the weight of the arm. You might hurt yourself if you are using those muscles and not the weight
 
#27
Square Bear said:
there is a major difference between using "flat fingers" and letting you fingers collapse. les fret, i think you are confusing the two. collapsing is when the finger loses support and the last knuckle bends back (as in the OP's picture). i assure you this never happens in the video you posted. sometimes it is appropriate to go to a flat (but supported) position to achieve a monsterous vibrato, but that is not the same thing. cestari definitely does that to vary the intensity of his vibrato sometimes.
Click to expand...

yes, I think you are right. Maybe I thought that because I never play with flat fingers and always have them curved. No teacher ever showed me the flat finger approach. It is thin line between flat fingers and collapsed fingers though and it is hard to see exactly how they hold the fingers on a video.
 
#29
you should focus on keeping the fingers curved so that you can build calluses, finger strength and good hand position. worry about flat fingers some day when you're playing concertos and need a huge sound and soloistic vibrato. it's not a technique you need to worry about for the eccles.

that said, when i refer to flat fingers, i mean that the knuckles remain supported, but the finger is straightened out a bit to get, as you say, the meatier surface of the finger involved in your sound. you really shouldn't let the knuckle collapse in basically ever. maybe if you are playing some outrageous double stop. others here are right, you can't press the string down using the muscles in you hand because the hand alone is too weak and will tire out very fast. you need to get the arm weight/shoulder/back involved. if you work up to it, these large muscle groups will not wear out after an entire day of playing!
 
#31
SplitNick said:
I have found that if you work with curved fingers for a good while the muscles become such that, in that bad way, just doesn't happen. My first and second fingers will barely collapse at all anymore. The third is still somewhat weak, but it will come too.
Click to expand...

right, same here. i was trying to collapse my fingers and they just wont do it any more. in a fitness class in college, i remember the teacher pointing out that you cannot have strength without sacrificing some flexibility in your body, and vice versa. i think this is an example of that. if you are vigilant about hand shape when you practice, your hand actually changes to better suit the bass. kinda cool, if you think about it!
 
#32
aMtt said:
Do others really find that collapsing the finger (letting the middle knuckle lock) produces a better vibrato? For me, letting this knuckle lock makes the finger completely inflexible, which just produces a very stiff, narrow vibrato.

Or is my definition of collapsing the finger different? What do other people define as a "collapsed" finger?
Click to expand...

To me, collapsing primarily means the knuckle closest to the nail.
 
#33
Hi Calvin

Some observations from the attached photo -

(1) Your thumb knuckle is rather large and knobby making it almost impossible to use the side of the thumb opposite the inland end of your thumbnail to hook the string down because of the hollow there.
(2) Your thumbnail is very long which suggests that your finger nails have a similar shape and length. If so then no matter how short you cut them there may not be enough flesh protruding past the top of the nail to hook the string down without the nail pressing on the string (very uncomfortable).
(3) Don't curl up unused fingers so much. This can stiffen your hand. Also you have to uncurl them again and get them back over the string before using them next.
(4) People can have quite a wide range of hand shapes and sizes, finger lengths (both overall and in relation to each other), amount of flesh on finger ends, and knobby versus not-knobby finger joints. Yet almost everyone can find a way to play the bass successfully.

I have one student whose index, 2nd and 3rd (ring) fingers are the same length. From Simandl 4th Position upwards he cannot get his pinkie comfortably on the string so uses 1 - 2 - 3 instead. He has a lot of trouble using 3rd finger in Thumb Position, has a knobby thumb knuckle and no flesh on the ends of his fingers past his nails. He uses his thumb the same way you do and his fingers must collapse the last joint. Yet he is making a good job so far of the Koussevitsky Concerto!!

I personally favour using bent fingers, likening my hand shape to when resting in playing position on the piano keyboard (or the table in front of you). The bridged fingers are stronger and hold their shape as they drop into notes. There is no double action of fingers before the notes speak clearly and there is virtually no risk of injury or over stretching of joints. I am lucky that my 3rd finger is longer than my index finger that makes it easier to have thumb and three fingers line up with relatively straight wrist and forearm in Thumb Position. It also makes the transition from neck to Thumb Position more comfortable as my hand turns from across the strings to progressively point more diagonally towards the bridge.

Try the Great Slide and observe what happens to the Left Hand. Glissando smoothly up from lowest A flat to the end of the fingerboard on the G string without grounding on the ribs with your forearm. Hook the end of your first finger slightly over the inside of the string as you are about to dive over into Thumb Position so you won't pull off sideways. Your hand goes from pointing across the strings in neck positions to more and more towards the bridge. Keep the 1st finger arched while the 3rd finger flattens out more but does not collapse.

I tuck the large muscle at the base of my thumb under my palm by closing it across towards my pinkie. This adds stiffness and strength to my thumb as a note maker and also lines my thumb up better with the three fingers on the string when my hand is in nice alignment with my wrist and forearm. The last joint of my thumb is almost 90 degrees to the string. The string groove moves from across the fleshy pad to diagonally across the end flesh of my fingers.

Arch your fingers and stiffen your thumb if you can. I've also seen some awfully good players who don't. Everyone has to find their own way. Avoid pain and minimise risk of injury!!

Best wishes,

DP

The differences between peoples' hands become very evident in Thumb Position
 
#34
I've really enjoyed this thread guys; this is an issue I've been struggling with for a while now. I'm really unhappy with my upper register vibrato and have been trying to tweak things to make it better. I had gradually become more and more collapsed in TP due to the initial pain of using the finger tips. My teacher strongly advocates the curved hand so I've been really focusing on that. The collapsed approach was actually making it more difficult for me to control my vibrato and it sounded thin to my ears. After listening to some of my recent recital recording, I could hardly hear any vibrato at all! It's only a Zoom H2 recording, but still...that's pretty upsetting. Anyways, it's been interesting to hear different perspectives on the issue.
 
#35
Will Yager said:
I've really enjoyed this thread guys; this is an issue I've been struggling with for a while now. I'm really unhappy with my upper register vibrato and have been trying to tweak things to make it better. I had gradually become more and more collapsed in TP due to the initial pain of using the finger tips. My teacher strongly advocates the curved hand so I've been really focusing on that. The collapsed approach was actually making it more difficult for me to control my vibrato and it sounded thin to my ears. After listening to some of my recent recital recording, I could hardly hear any vibrato at all! It's only a Zoom H2 recording, but still...that's pretty upsetting. Anyways, it's been interesting to hear different perspectives on the issue.
Click to expand...

Hi Will,

For you to obtain the best vibrato, you have to understand how your hand will work in the most strong, effective and efficient way. If you let the muscle under your left thumb strain(or maybe more generally just become overly tight) by having an "open" hand then you sacrifice control of your vibrato. If you notice great cellists and bassists who have spot on intonation(check out Edgar Meyer), you'll notice they tend to have smaller hand settings and play in a very natural way where their wrists are supported and they don't try to play too much on the tips generally.

For me, Edgar's left hand technique is a beautiful thing to watch and I feel I've learned so much from his influence(one of his students) even though I haven't had a lesson from him.
 
#38
David Potts said:
Hi Calvin

Some observations from the attached photo -
Click to expand...

Thanks David for the advice, cool how you could infer so much from just that picture!

Your advice has been useful!

To all:

Would you all agree with the conclusion that the main issue is not what method you use to play (collapsed, curved), but rather what method works best to produce a good sound?

And also, is it true that collapsed fingers are more injury prone?
 
#39
if I may comment from the photo... you don't want to have the hand be too straight forward, but slightly tilted to the left. slightly. you shouldn't be experiencing pain. although if you are a beginning player, I would take it slow.

Stop working on the sonata for a bit, and take things apart technically. Thumb position can be the easiest, once you realize that its basically a smaller version of 1st postition.

So I would work on scales- starting with two octaves, then perhaps some excercises from Rabbaths 1st book, but played in the fourth position.
Then work on the string crossings, or strokin', really get that down.

Then go to the eccles, and you will find it easier..
 
#40
I had a lesson with Joel Reist (Principal Bass, Nashville Symphony) where he suggested having the thumb rest on 2 strings. That is, if you're playing on the G string the thumb rests on the G and D, etc. It may help to think of the entire LH as one unit for a bit (T-1-2-3). Are you keeping your arm off the top of the bass? I find that the power to press down comes from the weight of the arm and that's not possible if you're resting your forearm on the bass.
Finally, look at your bass's set up and strings, etc. It may be a symptom of a needlessly high action or older strings that have started to stiffen due to metal fatigue. It may be a time for a trip to your luthier to check things out.
 

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