Double Bass Thumb position problems

[Bassing around]

Hey guys,

I've been working on the Eccles Sonata recently, and i find myself going into a very "odd" looking thumb position when i play. I have tried to go all curved fingers and using the tip of my fingers to touch the strings, but doing so it always brings pain.

Now, as seen in the picture, my index finger has a curve near the knuckle, but sort of bends near the fingertip.

Any suggestions on how to improve this?

Thanks,

Calvin

 

[ole Jason]

What do you mean when you say you have pain with curved fingers? Is it just from the pressure needed to press down the strings or more like joint pain?

I like to practice two octave scales completely in thumb position. You can really focus in on your hand shape and intonation.

For what it's worth I've seen quite a few professional players with the same index finger shape in your picture. It's pretty common and probably not a big problem if you're producing a good tone and aren't experiencing pain.

 

[MattMinteer]

Experiment with putting your thumbnail on the string(this helps to have your thumb not unnecessarily touch another string), get a teacher and check out videos of Edgar Meyer playing. Try to take note of things like where his thumb hits the string, how far he opens his hand(generally his hand settings are somewhat smaller which I believe can allow great precision and it's also more natural for the hand) and how he approaches thumb position in a general sense. When you're studying this, be aware that you need to find out what best works for you and you should also get a teacher to help guide on your journey.

Also, you should probably trim your fingernails.

 

[Les Fret]

It is hard to see on that picture. But it looks like your thumb is not really straight on the string. Try to put it in a 90 degree angle from the the string. In that way your spread is also bigger.

Also your thumb is bend a little, maybe you can try to keep it straight so you have more power to push in the string.

Opposed to what Mattminteer is saying you can also try to put your fingernail closer to the next string instead of further away. So playing more between the fingernail and the knuckle. Playing along the fingernail is more painful. Some also play on the knuckle but then you will touch the next string.

These are only suggestions for experimentation. I have looked at many players and all do it slightly different. I don't think there is one right way. Thumb position playing should not be painful.

 

[Bassing around]

Thanks for the responses.

When i mean pain in curved fingers, it would be the pain experienced when the tip of the finger touches the string.

So it is alright if my fingers do not maintain the "can grip" in thumb position?

 

[Square Bear]

pain in the tip of the finger is not bad. it just means you need heavier callouses and more finger strength. unfortunately, the only way to achieve that is to man up and play with curved fingers on the tips.

 

[Bassing around]

Hmm, I see.

I think I should avoid that, as my main instrument is an Erhu (Chinese version of the violin), and i think smooth fingers suit it better.

But the tonality does not vary, only the position in which you produce the note, am
I correct to say?

 

[Square Bear]

well, i personally need callouses to get a good tone. you can have smooth callouses on your fingers, i just file them occasionally with a pumice stone and that works well.

 

[Andrew McGregor]

It's not only about tone... bending the finger like that will injure your hand in the long run. You also can't do a decent vibrato with the finger locked.

Don't worry about the callouses being rough, you just end up with quite hard but smooth skin on the fingertips.

 

[Bassing around]

Thanks for the advice all,

Okay, i will man up and just play on my fingertips.

Thanks for the insightful advice guys!
Feel free to add anymore pointers you want to share!

 

[Les Fret]

It's not only about tone... bending the finger like that will injure your hand in the long run. You also can't do a decent vibrato with the finger locked.

I agree with you and don't play like this. But, many cello players play with the fingers bend/collapsed like this on purpose to make a nice vibrato. I don't understand why and maybe it doesn't work on bass only for cello.

 

[Matt Burri]

I agree with you and don't play like this. But, many cello players play with the fingers bend/collapsed like this on purpose to make a nice vibrato. I don't understand why and maybe it doesn't work on bass only for cello.

I don't know much about the cello, but in general, I've found that collapsed fingers produce a worse vibrato than curved fingers. Some people might make it work, but letting joints lock is restrictive.

And in your picture, it looks like you straighten your thumb out, too. Locked thumb, bent fingers works best for me, and its what I've seen in the best players I've been exposed to.

 

[Square Bear]

i think the biggest issue with collapsing the fingers is that it is a highly inefficient way to get the string down. not only do you achieve poor results, but you have to work a lot harder to do it. see here for my reasoning.

 

[MDEbass]

Collapsing the finger is actually stronger and helps you use the your weight from above more efficiently. Try doing push ups on your fingers. The only way you can do that is with your fingers collapsed. Why? Because its stronger that way. Try push ups with your fingertips with your fingers curved. It's pretty much impossible, and if you do, you will probably damage your fingers. I'm not saying that you should never curve your fingers, because in many cases where you may need to do that, but collapsing your fingers is stronger and helps you use your weight more efficiently.

Watch Rabbath's hand around 0:30ish on:

 

[Matt Burri]

Doing pushups on your fingertips would likely hurt you because you are putting your body's weight on a more concentrated area. I think the fact that you can do pushups on collapsed fingers only proves that you are putting pressure on a larger surface area. Strength and weight are different things, and it is more important to use gravity and weight to press the strings, rather than using strength to force them down.

After skipping around through the Art of The Bow and looking at a lot of videos of him online, I have to say that Rabbath has a pretty eccentric technique. Just because you like his playing doesn't necessarily mean his technique will work for you.

That said, if it does work for you, then good for you, do what works!

 

[JoeyNaeger]

I agree with you and don't play like this. But, many cello players play with the fingers bend/collapsed like this on purpose to make a nice vibrato. I don't understand why and maybe it doesn't work on bass only for cello.

Jeff Bradetich, one of the biggest advocators of curved fingers, admits that collapsed fingers yield a nicer vibrato. I find this to be true based on my own experience. I think it is because there is more flesh in contact with the strong so each oscillation of the finger causes a greater a change in pitch. I use both collapsed and curved postures in my playing and I think the versatility helps a lot. IMO, there is some misinformation about the superiority of the curved finger structure.

MDEbass, it was Paul Ellison who mentioned the pushup example that has caused me to significantly reevaluate the curved finger structure. You are lucky to have such an intelligent and open minded bass player to study with.

 

[ole Jason]

I use both collapsed and curved postures in my playing and I think the versatility helps a lot. IMO, there is some misinformation about the superiority of the curved finger structure.

I agree.

I think curved fingers lend greater facility in thumb position dexterity but collapsed fingers do produce a wider more pronounced vibrato. I think it's important to recognize the benefits of both and be able to use both.

For something like the Bach suites you may use a more curved hand approach to the fluid melody lines but collapsed when you reach a long note where vibrato would be appropriate.

 

[Les Fret]

Watch this clip and see how how he plays vibrato with the collapsed fingers. What I notice is that on almost every vibrato the fingers collapse.
Mostly the 3rd and 4th finger, especially in higher positions. Great piece by the way.

 

[SplitNick]

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but you might want to check out Bradetich's Double Bass: The Ultimate Challenge. This is not in regard to the collapsed finger, but the overall angle that you are using. Instead of thinking of being right on the tip of the fingers, coming straight at the fingerboard, you may want to experiment with angling the hand back up the neck (i.e. slightly lifting the outer side of your palm). You contact the string with the finger to the inside edge of the fingernail and this allows you to keep a better curved finger form. This may also help with your Erhu to bass and back transitions.

A good exercise for me personally to make this more fundamental to my playing is doing a scale from harmonic G to the end of the finger board using only 1st finger, constantly using vibrato. You can do this as glissandi or separate. I find it also improves my ear and intonation.

 

[Square Bear]

Watch this clip and see how how he plays vibrato with the collapsed fingers. What I notice is that on almost every vibrato the fingers collapse.
Mostly the 3rd and 4th finger, especially in higher positions. Great piece by the way.

cestari is not collapsing his fingers at all in this video. i don't know what you are talking about.