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Thunderbird Club

So, since music tends to be circular in its trends, what affect do the new class D amps have on that, and the "micro heads" that guitarists use? The lightweight gear is putting some heavier, older stuff on the used market, which is getting bought because it's affordable now.

For 90% of punters, the bass amp type and brand etc doesn't matter and chances are they're not hearing any amp, but a direct feed. If young musicians are going for valve gear it keeps that sound 'current' as older pros and semi-pros (oh our sching backs!) drop off the perch.

The trend for smaller guitar amps is a good thing and hopefully is not a passing thing. We ended up with monster guitar amps because of the inadequacy of concert sound reinforcement, which sparked something of an arms race in the backline, and a LOT of tinnitus and worse. There is more of a generalised understanding of how to get good amp tone these days.
 
It is an acquired taste for sure. I used to HATE the look of NR's but they have grown on me. I have always loved the look of a Reverse Bird tho.

Still not a fan of the NR's, just don't appeal to me whereas the Reversed Reverse I actually do like but will probably always go with the normal Reversed. Not a dis to all you NR fans though, I can appreciate your love of them. :)
 
For 90% of punters, the bass amp type and brand etc doesn't matter and chances are they're not hearing any amp, but a direct feed. If young musicians are going for valve gear it keeps that sound 'current' as older pros and semi-pros (oh our sching backs!) drop off the perch.

The trend for smaller guitar amps is a good thing and hopefully is not a passing thing. We ended up with monster guitar amps because of the inadequacy of concert sound reinforcement, which sparked something of an arms race in the backline, and a LOT of tinnitus and worse. There is more of a generalised understanding of how to get good amp tone these days.

I agree that many punters seem to only notice the bass when there is something wrong with it or it is not there. Some bassists round here go through the PA, but many still rely on their rigs for pub and club gigs. In my current band I don't go through the PA, nor in the band I was in for five years before that. I have filled in with a couple of pub and club bands who insist on everything, including the bass, through the PA. I don't enjoy it as much.

As for guitar amps, there is something still to be said for the tone and bare knuckled ride of a Les Paul through a Plexi, JMP or a JCM 800, or is that just my age and diminished hearing speaking?
 
Nah, it's not showing. I think that's exactly why lunchbox amps are doing so well: with the lower wattage, they can be dimed and sound really good, whereas getting that same hard pushed sound from a full powered head in crazy loud. With home recording not slowing down at all, the lunchbox heads are gonna be around quite a while yet.
 
What people buy has always been an area of fascination to me. When you get right down to it, the vast majority of the market doesn't need a half stack (or more) for what they're doing, and the bassist doesn't need a fridge or a pair of 410's. There are relatively few players at the level of needing that gear...but thankfully, "need" is not a bridge that really needs to be crossed. Want is enough. In my case, I could certainly get by with a single 410 cab, but two looks way cooler and gets the speakers up closer to my ears. :D
 
The AC30 is my favourite guitar amp.

Weller is using JTM45 combos these days and I believe Angus Young has a JTM45 head and cab in an isolation box.

Depends what you like doesn't it?

Exactlty. I am a Marshall guy.
Guitarist in my current band uses a Strat through a Fender Twin. I miss the Marshall/ Gibson sound sometimes.
 
Vis-a-vis "old school" sound etc, at least with regards to our new EP, it wasn't so much an attempt to try to make it sound that way, as it was the result of recording on little gear and a shoe string budget. I believe the drums had...3 mics? Guitar and drums recorded in a basement, together. Bass tracked using a cheap M-mobile into pro-tools. Granted, we didn't want it to sound clean and nice, but I think the result was equal parts resultant from the recording conditions, and the sonic goals of the band (load, distorted, etc). A lot of younger musicians are recording on whatever cheap gear they can get ahold of, often nowhere in site of a proper studio set up, and mixing it without any training, the end result of which is more Lo-Fi and in turn I suppose "Old School" in style.

And with regards to amps and PAs, for me at least it is few and far between when I see an opportunity to run my bass into the PA. Thus, I went for the "old school" approach of a larger amp and larger cabinet. And even when I do have a PA at my disposal, I do prefer to do the majority of the heavy lifting with the amp. As far as guitarists having small combos and going through the PA...well, this all comes down to image and what not, but when I go to see a show, I'd rather see a person knowing how to use their full stack than a combo and 6000 pedals for all their overdrive. Sure, chalk it up to theatrics, but a stage, imo, looks rather barren when on one side you have a small boutique combo and something like a TC and 2x10 on the other. It's like how a modern Ford Escort looks compared to a GTO Judge. They serve the same function yes, but there's a seriously difference in cool factor. That's not to say small combos sound bad, I love the AC30 and JTM45, but visually, they do not equal the appearance of stacks, and sonically, they don't equal the same power and oomph an actual stack possess. Hell, even a Marshall 1987 and 1959 don't sound the same, the 100w has more depth to it. A cranked up JTM 45 though a PA is not the same sonically as a JTM100 into 4x12s.

But I suppose the most important factor is really the setting and genre, I wouldn't want to see a band in the vein of Motorhead get up with just a fender rumble and deluxe and a bunch of pedals, but seeing a band more in the vein of like the Kinks or something do that would be totally fine.

The small amp trend I think benefits plenty of people and suits their needs well, my issue stems from when people get all bent that people still use the big old gear. "Your stupid and ignorant to the greatness of class d!" or "You're too loud and your amp is too big". Don't like it? Go somewhere else, do your own thing. I don't like the immediate incredulity of many sound guys and other musicians whenever you bring in something larger than a combo and they assume you're young and stupid and loud. Yeah, sorry, ended up ranty, I know, but I hear and see this a lot with both older and younger musicians. It's really the younger folks that puzzle me the most, people my own age harping on about how angry and loud the music is, I guess they've just grown accustomed to talking over music, having it be more background, with small gear and low wattage.
 
If I always had FOH support, all I would need would be enough for stage volume. But, I almost never have FOH support playing out. Playing at home or practicing, I use the little combo, and it's hardly ever even turned up. I have a monstrously powerful guitar amp, but never use it. It needs repairs, and I haven't done those repairs. I have a handful of minimal wattage guitar amps that I monkey around with in the basement and have for guitarists to play through when we rehearse in the basement. They keep up just fine with an acoustic drum kit in a small room. 5 watts is plenty for guitar. About 20 watts is probably plenty for bass.

Playing out, I still use a big ol' folded horn. It's plenty loud enough and I think it sounds great.
 
I went to see a friend play a dive about a year ago and his band was 3 piece guitar/bass/drum and the guitar and bass each had a 100 watt combo. They sounded fine for what they were doing but before the next band loaded in, my friend told me that "These guys are LOUD!!'. Sure enough they come in with a Marshall half stack and a GK 800RB/2x15. When the guitarist hit the first chord it felt like a punch in the chest!! It was awesome!! The sound was so much better with the stacks IMO. It seemed to fill the space so to speak.

I don't mind seeing bands that have the lightweight gear and combos. I get it and not everyone has money or desire to spend on big rigs or the ability to transport it. What I really care about when I see bands is the music they are playing. Always nice to see cool or unusual gear, but that isn't the reason I am there.
 
'Modern' is another way of saying 'clean' and 'mid-scooped', which may be admirable qualities in a husband but don't necessarily work as well for bass tone.
XD that's perfect

I like my sound like I like my women: nasty.

For 90% of punters, the bass amp type and brand etc doesn't matter and chances are they're not hearing any amp, but a direct feed. If young musicians are going for valve gear it keeps that sound 'current' as older pros and semi-pros (oh our sching backs!) drop off the perch.

The trend for smaller guitar amps is a good thing and hopefully is not a passing thing. We ended up with monster guitar amps because of the inadequacy of concert sound reinforcement, which sparked something of an arms race in the backline, and a LOT of tinnitus and worse. There is more of a generalised understanding of how to get good amp tone these days.
I don't usually have PA support at my gigs. When I do, it's usually a mic on the cab, as if the sound person asks, I say "well, I use a lot of overdrive from the amp and also a fuzz pedal," and they reach for a mic upon hearing that. This the case at a lot of underground doom/sludge/stoner metal shows.

We also all wear ear plugs. Now, some may ask "what's the point of turning up loud if you're just going to wear ear plugs?" But that ignores the fact that bludgeoningly loud with ear plugs sounds and feels way different than quiet with no ear plugs. Totally different energy.

As for the trend for smaller guitar amps... I think it's driven in part by older players.

The thing a lot of the older players on TB forget is that young people today don't really care about how much amps weigh any more than they did when they were young. I see a lot of "in my day, we schlepped [heavy rig] up and down stairs every gig blah blah blah." If many of these folks got out and saw younger bands, they'd realize that a lot of us are schlepping those same heavy rigs.

Vis-a-vis "old school" sound etc, at least with regards to our new EP, it wasn't so much an attempt to try to make it sound that way, as it was the result of recording on little gear and a shoe string budget. I believe the drums had...3 mics? Guitar and drums recorded in a basement, together. Bass tracked using a cheap M-mobile into pro-tools. Granted, we didn't want it to sound clean and nice, but I think the result was equal parts resultant from the recording conditions, and the sonic goals of the band (load, distorted, etc). A lot of younger musicians are recording on whatever cheap gear they can get ahold of, often nowhere in site of a proper studio set up, and mixing it without any training, the end result of which is more Lo-Fi and in turn I suppose "Old School" in style.

And with regards to amps and PAs, for me at least it is few and far between when I see an opportunity to run my bass into the PA. Thus, I went for the "old school" approach of a larger amp and larger cabinet. And even when I do have a PA at my disposal, I do prefer to do the majority of the heavy lifting with the amp. As far as guitarists having small combos and going through the PA...well, this all comes down to image and what not, but when I go to see a show, I'd rather see a person knowing how to use their full stack than a combo and 6000 pedals for all their overdrive. Sure, chalk it up to theatrics, but a stage, imo, looks rather barren when on one side you have a small boutique combo and something like a TC and 2x10 on the other. It's like how a modern Ford Escort looks compared to a GTO Judge. They serve the same function yes, but there's a seriously difference in cool factor. That's not to say small combos sound bad, I love the AC30 and JTM45, but visually, they do not equal the appearance of stacks, and sonically, they don't equal the same power and oomph an actual stack possess. Hell, even a Marshall 1987 and 1959 don't sound the same, the 100w has more depth to it. A cranked up JTM 45 though a PA is not the same sonically as a JTM100 into 4x12s.

But I suppose the most important factor is really the setting and genre, I wouldn't want to see a band in the vein of Motorhead get up with just a fender rumble and deluxe and a bunch of pedals, but seeing a band more in the vein of like the Kinks or something do that would be totally fine.

The small amp trend I think benefits plenty of people and suits their needs well, my issue stems from when people get all bent that people still use the big old gear. "Your stupid and ignorant to the greatness of class d!" or "You're too loud and your amp is too big". Don't like it? Go somewhere else, do your own thing. I don't like the immediate incredulity of many sound guys and other musicians whenever you bring in something larger than a combo and they assume you're young and stupid and loud. Yeah, sorry, ended up ranty, I know, but I hear and see this a lot with both older and younger musicians. It's really the younger folks that puzzle me the most, people my own age harping on about how angry and loud the music is, I guess they've just grown accustomed to talking over music, having it be more background, with small gear and low wattage.
Exactly this. I get my sound from my amp and cab; same with my guitarists.

Some examples of local shows (some of which I'm in with Dustern and Catapult) around here, and the kinds of backlines you see:



Note, Rebecca, the guitarist/vocalist, was really sick on this particular tour













 
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Well, you won't see an Acoustic 360 very often, unless you see me play bass somewhere. Then you have about a 75% chance of that.

You won't often see a Sunn 2000s rig out very often, but if I'm playing there's a 95% chance you will. I think I can count on one hand the number of shows I've played without one since I first bought one about 7 years ago.


Two, I believe, two shows in 7 years I've played without a 2000s or 1200s. An one of those was with a 200s.
 
You won't often see a Sunn 2000s rig out very often, but if I'm playing there's a 95% chance you will. I think I can count on one hand the number of shows I've played without one since I first bought one about 7 years ago.


Two, I believe, two shows in 7 years I've played without a 2000s or 1200s. An one of those was with a 200s.
My D-180 and 2000S 2x15 comprise my only rig.
 
Guess I must be one of those Old Guys you youngsters are ragging on. Yeah, back in the day I used to lug around an Ampeg V4B with the big folded horn cab with a handle on the back and rollers on the bottom. Later moved to an Acoustic 370/301 rig (another big folded horn cab), only slightly smaller, probably louder, and still a bitch to haul up a flight of stairs. Been there done that.

Now I run the little tiny Class D stuff. Right now it's two TC-E BG250's stacked and AB'ed together (2 - 10's and a 115, 500 watts total, 39 lbs each x 2) and I just got a Rumble 500 (2 - 10's @ 350 watts, with another 210 cab it's 500 watts, about 36 lbs each). 500 watts into 4 - 10's is freaking loud, at least as loud as the Old School stuff I used to schlep around (so volume isn't an issue) and WAY easier to haul around. I like to think of it as working smarter as opposed to working harder. No offense intended to you Old Schoolers, have at it. Just be sure to keep up your core strength and protect your backs. :thumbsup:
 
I'd rather see a person knowing how to use their full stack than a combo and 6000 pedals for all their overdrive.

I reckon there's a higher chance of the AC30 being W.F.O (because it's smaller), less recourse to pedals etc ... and only a bit more than 3dB difference between it and the Marshall ... through similar speakers.

I don't have a problem with Marshall guitar stacks ... I just like to stand in the next suburb while enjoying them. Honestly there are moments when my tinnitus is almost too much to bear. And I *do* have a 200W valve head which I wanted specifically because Traynors are notorious/famous/loved for not really doing clean or clinical (Class D is just not for me).

I think it's great that the rugrats are keeping the valves lit and not being distracted with all this talk of (silicon) 'tube tone'. I just worry yiz eardrums will run out the holes in the sides of yiz heeds is all...
 
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Honestly there are moments when my tinnitus is almost too much to bear.
Amen. I'm seriously concerned about getting any more hearing loss, my tinnitus is steady and constant and I seriously regret that I didn't start using ear plugs and more recently In Ear monitors to control incoming volume. The sins of youth coming home to roost...
 
I reckon there's a higher chance of the AC30 being W.F.O (because it's smaller), less recourse to pedals etc ... and only a bit more than 3dB difference between it and the Marshall ... through similar speakers.

I don't have a problem with Marshall guitar stacks ... I just like to stand in the next suburb while enjoying them. Honestly there are moments when my tinnitus is almost too much to bear. And I *do* have a 200W valve head which I wanted specifically because Traynors are notorious/famous/loved for not really doing clean or clinical (Class D is just not for me).

I think it's great that the rugrats are keeping the valves lit and not being distracted with all this talk of (silicon) 'tube tone'. I just worry yiz eardrums will run out the holes in the sides of yiz heeds is all...
Ear plugs. Easy. I have some good quality ones.
 
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