Thunderbird Club

[kat888]

My sister is LH and I have no idea if she played the oboe (aka 'duck strangling') with her hands reversed. I used to play upside down guitar because that's what was to hand in the room. Last time I was looking at such things, an LH guitar cost 20% more than the RH one.

 

[PillO]

If that's the approach they wish to take... they need to provide their retailers with a truckload more information, so the customer can get the answers from them. My experience over the years has shown that, it you're asking a question about a Gibson product that's on their sales floor... the odds are better that they will know at least something about the product. If you ask them about a Gibson product that's not on the sales floor... they typically don't know any more than the customer. Under those circumstances... Gibson is not only letting their customers down... they're also letting their customer's customers down. At the end of the day... it's all about the manufacturer and the end user. Marketing 101... "Make it easy for your customer to buy your product". Of course "Know your customer" is right up there too... and we see how well they're doing with that...

The local shop I wander through off and on has been a Gibson/Epiphone dealer off and on forever. Gibson seems to be very hard to deal with. That shop carries Fender, of course, and a whole lot of other brands. They seem to have dropped Ibanez, although I don't know why. The picked up Rickenbacker recently, and have a number of other brands like Eastwood. I think they have Gretsch, too. I know I have seen Gretsch guitars there. But, for whatever reason, Gibson appears and then disappears. I guess the Gibson CSRs are just as opaque to them as they are to everyone else. Too bad. I really do prefer Gibson guitars and bass guitars. It's just Gibson the company I don't prefer so much, and that doesn't seem to be a unique opinion.

I know I've probably said this a million times, but although I share some of the same annoyances as the rest with Gibson, I have to give them some slack because of how fortunate I am to have a real left-handed Thunderbird. I don't think right-handed players can truly understand how much this means, even if it ends up to be a one-off situation. And they did it right, too. Rickenbacker makes their basses left-handed, but there are some really weird elements that they never really reversed for it, like the fretboard inlays. They're upside down. So even if it's decades too late, Gibson has my gratitude.

I make light of the CSR, however, I am conscious and sensitive to the issue raised. But having said that, there are business realities that are being ignored in considering the way we might like things to be.

@theFixer I'm going to say that maybe you need a better brick and mortar store to go to. My local Long and McQuade (kind of like the Canadian Guitar Center) is actually excellent. They give me estimates of when items such as the red JC, are coming. They can view the system wide inventory and tell me where the item I want is and tell me when they could get it in for me. The staff are quite knowledgeable on the product. I suspect that at least a couple of people from the store attend NAMM as they can talk intelligently about what was there and when it is coming.

Why is this retail so easy to work with? Perhaps because people like me walk in and buy things there. Buying on the internet may save you a few bucks, but it is driving the local music store out of business. If you don't shop at your local music store, they won't be around when you need them or when you want to try something to see if it fits your needs. And they have staff to pay. If you nickel and dime them on everything, when it comes time to hire staff, they go minimum wage. L&M hire musicians to work their stores. They give them time off for touring etc. But they are people that know what they are talking about.

It does not surprise me that Gibson is difficult to deal with. I suspect that it is a global brand now being run like a little boutique sole operator. There are economies of scale in musical instruments. Fender has done well with this rolling up brands such as Charvel and Jackson. Gibson bought up Epiphone, but I think they haven't embraced that industrial roll up strategy like Fender did. This may relegate them to also-ran status in the medium to long term. Time will tell.

Can a company say much about what is coming in the new model year? Absolutely not. As a consumer, if you know that a newer, better version is coming, you are likely to defer your purchase until the newer, shiner item comes along. This means that the manufacturer is stuck with inventory and reduced sales. This is an earnings double whammy; not only do you see lower sales, but you have to take a write down on unsold inventory.

Like @BklynKen I appreciate some of the interesting things that Gibson has done. Fender plays it safe producing hose items that they know will sell; Ps and Js. It doesn't excuse the consumer ill will that Gibson seems to keep trying to build, but it does buy them some slack.

For all the complaining, there are a lot of things that Gibson is doing right. If it is true that the manufacturing is running at capacity and they are selling everything made, it is a good bet that they are making money. Making money is the goal of running a business. For those that say that they could do it so much better, go raise the capital and start your own company or buy an existing ne. If it really is as easy as some say, lining up the financing will be easy. In reality, it is hard to raise the capital because it is not easy. I have experience raising capital (on both sides of the table) and can say with certainty, that any entrepreneur that says it is easy doesn't get funded because they have not done any risk assessment.

 

[Dr_Feelgoood212]

I never understood the hand oriention of guitars/basses. It's bass ackwards if you ask me, comparing it to holding a baseball bat or golf club, even a hockey stick. Left hand is always closest to the body. Then you have a guitar/bass where it's completely opposite.

 

[PillO]

My sister is LH and I have no idea if she played the oboe (aka 'duck strangling') with her hands reversed. I used to play upside down guitar because that's what was to hand in the room. Last time I was looking at such things, an LH guitar cost 20% more than the RH one.

Just about everything LH specific seems to cost 10-20% more. The price of smaller production runs. I too have a sinister sibling, but he plays RH. I have thought that it could be good to have a LH teacher; when demonstrating, it would be like looking in a mirror.

 

[BklynKen]

Agreed. I was not fortunate enough to be able to get one of the 2013 lefty Thunderbirds and I really regret that. I did get an SG and since I've always had a soft spot for the EB-3 I'm very happy to have it. Now that there are lefty T'birds out there "in the wild" as it where I hold out hope that at some point I'll finally be able to get one. I would really love to have a Ripper, but there was supposedly only 2 ever made and I've only seen one of them.

Ricks are a real sore spot with me. I have always wanted one, probably more than any other bass but their use of right handed necks/fretboards completely turned me off to them. In recent years they have finally gone fully left handed and I have actually played two 4003s but the neck shape is such that I cannot play them comfortably no matter what I tried. The other problem is the price, last one I handled was priced at $2650.00!! If I could get a used one at a decent price I could modify the neck shape if necessary but that would be the only way it would work for me.

I didn’t know Rics went full left-handed. Cool. I only ever played one, a 1978 Mapleglo, but it was too heavy.

I’m sure you’ll find a Thunderbird pop up.

 

[Dr_Feelgoood212]

Just about everything LH specific seems to cost 10-20% more. The price of smaller production runs. I too have a sinister sibling, but he plays RH. I have thought that it could be good to have a LH teacher; when demonstrating, it would be like looking in a mirror.

Problem with lefty stuff especially musical instruments, is the company has to hire someone that can play lefty to setup and test the product.

 

[Basshappi]

Nonsense, I'm right handed.

 

[PillO]

Problem with lefty stuff especially musical instruments, is the company has to hire someone that can play lefty to setup and test the product.

So, you are against diversity hiring and affirmative action. Don't we need to make sure that 10-20% of all employees at all levels are non-dextros to ensure a fair and just society?






*For the humour challenged, tongue is firmly in cheek here.

 

[Count Bassie]

Yes.

Now there's a good answer!

 

[BklynKen]

Just about everything LH specific seems to cost 10-20% more. The price of smaller production runs. I too have a sinister sibling, but he plays RH. I have thought that it could be good to have a LH teacher; when demonstrating, it would be like looking in a mirror.

That’s exactly right. It’s actually pretty easy to pick stuff up from a right-handed player when I’m facing them for that exact reason. But not all companies charge extra for LH. Gibson did not for the Thunderbird. Carvin doesn’t. I don’t think Fender does, but not sure about that one. I do wish they would make an LH version of the Jaguar bass like they do the J and P. I love that body.

Just dropped the Thunderbird off at the luthiers. It was like dropping a pet off at the vet or kennel. She said I did a good job with all the adjusting I’ve been doing. Neck looks great and she said I probably got the action on the upper frets about as low as you can for this bass. But I want them to smooth out all the work I’ve been doing. She did say that some of the upper frets could use a little work, that they’re a little up and down and cause some buzzing up there. I just said to do what they need. They’re the pros. But I’m glad to hear that I did a pretty good job. I guess that’s your answer from your advice a while back, @GBassNorth . Thanks!

 

[PillO]

That’s exactly right. It’s actually pretty easy to pick stuff up from a right-handed player when I’m facing them for that exact reason. But not all companies charge extra for LH. Gibson did not for the Thunderbird. Carvin doesn’t. I don’t think Fender does, but not sure about that one. I do wish they would make an LH version of the Jaguar bass like they do the J and P. I love that body.

I think (but am not sure) that in Canada, 7ender charges a small premium (~$100) for LH. What I find very amusing is that Cosmo's website shows the LH instruments upside down. I guess some web guy thought the aesthetics of having all the headstocks pointing the same way were important.

Just dropped the Thunderbird off at the luthiers. It was like dropping a pet off at the vet or kennel. She said I did a good job with all the adjusting I’ve been doing. Neck looks great and she said I probably got the action on the upper frets about as low as you can for this bass. But I want them to smooth out all the work I’ve been doing. She did say that some of the upper frets could use a little work, that they’re a little up and down and cause some buzzing up there. I just said to do what they need. They’re the pros. But I’m glad to hear that I did a pretty good job. I guess that’s your answer from your advice a while back, @GBassNorth . Thanks!

The JC just went in for a set up to get rid of some buzzing at the first fret.

 

[theFixer]

I make light of the CSR, however, I am conscious and sensitive to the issue raised. But having said that, there are business realities that are being ignored in considering the way we might like things to be.

@theFixer I'm going to say that maybe you need a better brick and mortar store to go to. My local Long and McQuade (kind of like the Canadian Guitar Center) is actually excellent. They give me estimates of when items such as the red JC, are coming. They can view the system wide inventory and tell me where the item I want is and tell me when they could get it in for me. The staff are quite knowledgeable on the product. I suspect that at least a couple of people from the store attend NAMM as they can talk intelligently about what was there and when it is coming.

Why is this retail so easy to work with? Perhaps because people like me walk in and buy things there. Buying on the internet may save you a few bucks, but it is driving the local music store out of business. If you don't shop at your local music store, they won't be around when you need them or when you want to try something to see if it fits your needs. And they have staff to pay. If you nickel and dime them on everything, when it comes time to hire staff, they go minimum wage. L&M hire musicians to work their stores. They give them time off for touring etc. But they are people that know what they are talking about.

It does not surprise me that Gibson is difficult to deal with. I suspect that it is a global brand now being run like a little boutique sole operator. There are economies of scale in musical instruments. Fender has done well with this rolling up brands such as Charvel and Jackson. Gibson bought up Epiphone, but I think they haven't embraced that industrial roll up strategy like Fender did. This may relegate them to also-ran status in the medium to long term. Time will tell.

Can a company say much about what is coming in the new model year? Absolutely not. As a consumer, if you know that a newer, better version is coming, you are likely to defer your purchase until the newer, shiner item comes along. This means that the manufacturer is stuck with inventory and reduced sales. This is an earnings double whammy; not only do you see lower sales, but you have to take a write down on unsold inventory.

Like @BklynKen I appreciate some of the interesting things that Gibson has done. Fender plays it safe producing hose items that they know will sell; Ps and Js. It doesn't excuse the consumer ill will that Gibson seems to keep trying to build, but it does buy them some slack.

For all the complaining, there are a lot of things that Gibson is doing right. If it is true that the manufacturing is running at capacity and they are selling everything made, it is a good bet that they are making money. Making money is the goal of running a business. For those that say that they could do it so much better, go raise the capital and start your own company or buy an existing ne. If it really is as easy as some say, lining up the financing will be easy. In reality, it is hard to raise the capital because it is not easy. I have experience raising capital (on both sides of the table) and can say with certainty, that any entrepreneur that says it is easy doesn't get funded because they have not done any risk assessment.

We could debate like this back & forth for page after page... and at the end of it all, we would probably agree that we all made some good points. I maintain that it is possible to run a profitable business, while maintaining good customer relations. That's my main point.

 

[Dr_Feelgoood212]

I think (but am not sure) that in Canada, 7ender charges a small premium (~$100) for LH. What I find very amusing is that Cosmo's website shows the LH instruments upside down. I guess some web guy thought the aesthetics of having all the headstocks pointing the same way were important.



The JC just went in for a set up to get rid of some buzzing at the first fret.

I'm pretty sure they do that because they have a wall mount display style hangar. Where you can display the bass in a horizontal/playing position. So they're not going to change that setup for a left handed guitar.

 

[Gaolee]

My sister is LH and I have no idea if she played the oboe (aka 'duck strangling') with her hands reversed. I used to play upside down guitar because that's what was to hand in the room. Last time I was looking at such things, an LH guitar cost 20% more than the RH one.

There's two of you!!!??!!

 

[PillO]

I'm pretty sure they do that because they have a wall mount display style hangar. Where you can display the bass in a horizontal/playing position. So they're not going to change that setup for a left handed guitar.

Actually, I can't see any evidence of any hanger. It looks more like they lay the bass on something white and photograph form above. But regardless, how hard is it to turn the photo 180 degrees? Maybe they think that all lefties live in Australia?

 

[kat888]

There's two of you!!!??!!

Younger, much more 'conventional', always ratting me out when she was wee ... people think she's older because she bosses me about. Something to look forward to next week.

 

[Dr_Feelgoood212]

Actually, I can't see any evidence of any hanger. It looks more like they lay the bass on something white and photograph form above. But regardless, how hard is it to turn the photo 180 degrees? Maybe they think that all lefties live in Australia?

I just checked and I agree about not being able to see a hangar, I've seen a few sites that you can see the hangars. It would be a smart idea to rotate the picture. But they must be doing something right if they can stock 4 Ritters.

 

[PillO]

We could debate like this back & forth for page after page... and at the end of it all, we would probably agree that we all made some good points.

As long as you admit that I'm right

I maintain that it is possible to run a profitable business, while maintaining good customer relations. That's my main point.

I don't disagree. But, I think we need to keep Henry J's agenda in mind. He is not a musician. He has no passion for musical instruments (that can be seen). He bought cheap assets/a collapsing business. What he is looking at is a turn around opportunity. To that end, he needs to sell the business at some point to realize his gains from the turn around. He will either sell into a roll up (Fender-Gibson anyone?), sell to a private equity fund that will operate the company for the cash flow, or float the company publically. For any of those, to maximize his returns, he needs to show the greatest sustainable profit. That means minimum wage CSRs.

My prediction - the public float is unlikely to be possible in the current market (luxury goods are not doing especially well). That could change. Most likely, Gibson will be sold to a Japanese music company that understands how to do an industry roll up. Top of my list is Gibson becoming a unit of Yamaha.

 

[PillO]

I just checked and I agree about not being able to see a hangar, I've seen a few sites that you can see the hangars. It would be a smart idea to rotate the picture. But they must be doing something right if they can stock 4 Ritters.

Holding inventory is easy. They'll be doing something right when they sell them...

 

[Dr_Feelgoood212]

Holding inventory is easy. They'll be doing something right when they sell them...

I haven't been in sales or anything but I would assume being able to afford to hold the inventory is different as well. If they can afford to have 4 instruments totalling roughly $40-50k they must be doing something right.