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Thunderfunk Question - Limiter

pablomigraine

pablomigraine

Commercial User
Feb 9, 2005
3,458
611
New York
neuraldsp.com
Disclosures
Director of Commercial Sales - Neural DSP
#1
So before you instinctively reply with "do a search" please do read on:

There's been so much info (and love) posted on these amps, I could easily spend all day looking .....

Right now I play an Eden Navigator with a Carvin DCM1000. From everything Ive read, the TFB750 will be a similar sounding, higher quality, less powerful version of the same type of delicious cake. Im considering swapping, since I dont have any need for stereo or biamping.

What I'm trying to figure out is what kind of effects I can expect from the limiter. I'm one of those folks who considers compression and limiting to be an integral part of my sound. Now, Im not talking Armstrong-like "effect" type of compression, but nice hard-knee, high ratio, slow attack type transparent compression. To give you an idea, I use a line driver to ramp up the input to my Navigator from my passive bass, and run the ratio and threshold controls all the way up (max comp, min thresh)

Is this a super transparent, brick wall limiter that simply clamps gain or a effective compressor? How's it sound?

Thoughts?
Experiences?
 
#2
pablomigraine said:
Is this a super transparent, brick wall limiter that simply clamps gain or a effective compressor? How's it sound?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say so, as the TF isn't a super transparent amp to begin with. I'm not familiar with the Navigator pre, but compared to Eden WT600 I found the TF to be more compressed and less open sounding, even though they are more similar than different.

As for the limiter, it is a very, very high quality one, just as the rest of the amp. If that tone is your thing, it can't be beaten. Best matched with wide sounding basses and cabs IMO.
 
#4
Pablomigraine,

I use a dbx 160a for Compression/Limiting, which may be overkill, but it gives me a great sustain. Notes ring for a good long time... So far I've tried both in pre- and post- EQ and can't really decide which I prefer. Like many others, the bulk of my TF settings are flat (relatively speaking) and I can still muster some thunderous bass.

I leave the TF Gain/Limiter on all the time and have only once had the thing light up, and I am still not sure why. Anyway, based on the owner's manual it should be set using the gain/limit control so it engages when your lowest note is played its hardest. My stage volumes have yet to engage (light the LED) even when the dbx is on bypass. I'll set the Volume lower and work the Gain/Limit at the next rehearsal.


I would think that a TFB-750 would sound sweet paired with a set (pair, oh my!) of Berg 215s. Bring them with you when you come over....you can leave them here if its to much to manage. :eek:


Later...
 
#5
All the below is based on my experience with a tfb 550 A. Never touched the 750.

It is my understanding that the limiter button doesn't really turn on the limiter. The limiter is actually always able to be engaged. The limiter button adds a little gain boost (and maybe lowers the threshold for the limiter?) when engaged. The t-funk's limiter doesn't do a damned thing for me when it kicks in. Seems to suck too much of the life out of the note. It certainly feels like a brick wall to me. Please bear in mind that I am not a compression kinda guy though. I can always instantaneously tell when I have my gain set too hot without looking at the amp's input LED just by the way my tone changes (for the worse). That being said, I ALWAYS leave the limiter "on". The tone changes for the better on this amp with the limiter button depressed but not set hot enough to engage. Most people I've talked to on here seem to do this.

The thunderfunk won't be clean like an Iamp will be, but IME it is cleaner than any eden head I've touched. A whole lot punchier also. The low end is tight and controlled (think blinding transients) rather than the more pillowy eden style sound.

PS: I understand the whole massive headroom bit too. I've occasionally run my thunderfunk head through my crown MA 2402. Where's the homer simpson drooling emoticon.....
 
#6
pablomigraine said:
So before you instinctively reply with "do a search" please do read on:

There's been so much info (and love) posted on these amps, I could easily spend all day looking .....

Right now I play an Eden Navigator with a Carvin DCM1000. From everything Ive read, the TFB750 will be a similar sounding, higher quality, less powerful version of the same type of delicious cake. Im considering swapping, since I dont have any need for stereo or biamping.

What I'm trying to figure out is what kind of effects I can expect from the limiter. I'm one of those folks who considers compression and limiting to be an integral part of my sound. Now, Im not talking Armstrong-like "effect" type of compression, but nice hard-knee, high ratio, slow attack type transparent compression. To give you an idea, I use a line driver to ramp up the input to my Navigator from my passive bass, and run the ratio and threshold controls all the way up (max comp, min thresh)

Is this a super transparent, brick wall limiter that simply clamps gain or a effective compressor? How's it sound?

Thoughts?
Experiences?
Click to expand...

IMO and IME the TF limiter is strictly a 'protect against hard transient peaks' type system than a full function compressor.
 
#7
KJung said:
IMO and IME the TF limiter is strictly a 'protect against hard transient peaks' type system than a full function compressor.
Click to expand...

Hmmmmm..... that means I'd hafta add a rackmount compressor. Kinda defeats the purpose of downsizing from the Eden / Carvin rack if I'm only losing one rackspace. I understand the TFB is a higher quality piece, but it has an appreciably lower output than the DCM1000 FWIT....

anyone else wanna chime in?
 
#8
The 750 isn't a smaller amp. it's loud due to it's phase coherence.

The Limiter disengages when the button is out. There's a second limiter at the end of the preamp that is always on but doesn't limit until you reach clipping. Same as the Eden. They just don't talk about it.

It's a very well received nice sounding limiter, but it is only a limiter. It's not touted as a great thing.



































I'm a Thunderfunk endorser but that aside it really is a great product.
 
#11
Hm. That was interesting, but he never did actually answer the question. I could interpret what he said to mean that the output is in phase with the input, which is a valid concept, except under most circumstances that change would be inaudible since you only ever hear the output. I could also interpret what he said to mean that a well-designed circuit doesn't alter the signal passing through it in unwanted or unintentional ways--also a valid concept, certainly, but not having much to do with the phase of the wave necessarily.

Please note I'm not arguing with you here or trying to bust your chops, I'm actually interested to know exactly what he's talking about from a technical standpoint.
 
#13
I have the 550B which was altered. I don't want to say what was done as I said it 1000 times. I tried to sell it but I can't. The more I play it the more I am getting into it. As far as the limiter. It works well and it sounds better with it on even at lower volumes and when the gain is lower for some reason. Its a good limiter and it enhances the tone. I wish I had the 750A. I truely do but I have to be happy with what I got eventhough it is now at 625 watts and I wish it were more. If you are lucky enough to get the 750A it sounds exactly how Dave explains. It sounds like there is a bunch of high quality
components. You can get that very clean transister sound or a tube type slightly dirty tone. Without the dirt.:confused:
But back to the limiter. It may be closer to what KJUNG said but.... It does sound better with it on than off to my ears.
But it does protect the speakers.
 
#14
Bassist30 said:
I have the 550B which was altered. I don't want to say what was done as I said it 1000 times. I tried to sell it but I can't. The more I play it the more I am getting into it. As far as the limiter. It works well and it sounds better with it on even at lower volumes and when the gain is lower for some reason. Its a good limiter and it enhances the tone. I wish I had the 750A. I truely do but I have to be happy with what I got eventhough it is now at 625 watts and I wish it were more. If you are lucky enough to get the 750A it sounds exactly how Dave explains. It sounds like there is a bunch of high quality
components. You can get that very clean transister sound or a tube type slightly dirty tone. Without the dirt.:confused:
But back to the limiter. It may be closer to what KJUNG said but.... It does sound better with it on than off to my ears.
But it does protect the speakers.
Click to expand...

+1 to what you hear. I always left the limiter 'on but not engaged' on my TF's when I had them. I'm not sure what is going on, but as you point out, engaging the limiter switch actually acts as a boost (and if my ears weren't tricking me, boosted the low end a touch, which was a good thing with the old 550's). I'm not sure that this really had anything to do with the limiter itself, since I never allowed the 'red light' to come on, since I found that circuit went from 'off to quash' for me.

It seems fine if you want to set it to engage when pounding on the B string for amp/speaker protection, but IMO would not replace a high quality compressor for those who use/need that effect IMO and IME. So, in this way, it is very similar to the Eden/SWR limiting circuit, and I guess that is not surprising, give the common heritage of all these amps.
 
#16
pablomigraine said:
Well I dunno..... tell me what was done!
Click to expand...

It has the newer powersupply. It is an improvement. Unfortunately its not an option but a trial. Also I agree with KJUNG in that there is an improvement with sound when the limiter is on. I tried having it off and using a good compressor but I liked it better using the TF's limiter instead.
As far as an eq it has tons of usable eq settings that you can change to if or when you are seeking a different sound. There are alot of great amps out here but the TF is very unique. I have used it with 4 different cabinets and it sounded good with all because of its eq possibilities. Right now I am really into the Tommix eq setting. Or its a slight alteration.
Bass and treble flat. Boost the 40 k, boost the 180 k, boost the 400 k and the 4 k. enhance at 3 to 4. The timbre one to the left.
 
#17
Bassist30 said:
It has the newer powersupply. It is an improvement. Unfortunately its not an option but a trial. Also I agree with KJUNG in that there is an improvement with sound when the limiter is on. I tried having it off and using a good compressor but I liked it better using the TF's limiter instead.
As far as an eq it has tons of usable eq settings that you can change to if or when you are seeking a different sound. There are alot of great amps out here but the TF is very unique. I have used it with 4 different cabinets and it sounded good with all because of its eq possibilities. Right now I am really into the Tommix eq setting. Or its a slight alteration.
Bass and treble flat. Boost the 40 k, boost the 180 k, boost the 400 k and the 4 k. enhance at 3 to 4. The timbre one to the left.
Click to expand...


What exactly does the Timbre do? is this a subjective thing or can somebody qualify it specifically?
 
#18
According to the manual,it is a complex adjustment of bass and treble on one knob.Basically,starting at 12 o'clock,turn to the left you get more bass,and less treble,turning to the right of center does just the opposite.I usually set the timbre 9:00,and adjust the enhance knob to taste. Don't even use the 4 band tone controls. Awsome amps!
 
#19
IIRC.. yours had the newer Power amp board.. similar or the same as the newer 750.. But you still have the same power supply that you had in the 550B as when it was new...And not the newer power supply that is in the 750.... The newer PS and transformer that is in the 750 is slightly taller IIRC and will not fit right in a 550 Chassis.. again IIRC.
And your preamp board would have been the same unchanged 550B.
The only upgrade that you got was the 750 Poweramp Board with the added small CAPS right on the output transistors/ power amp board itself which added to some extra speed of the amp..
That was in a phone call with Dave about 2 years ago..
Your amp does kick some tail... It was fun doing an AB with my little killer when i was there.


Bassist30 said:
It has the newer powersupply. It is an improvement. Unfortunately its not an option but a trial. Also I agree with KJUNG in that there is an improvement with sound when the limiter is on. I tried having it off and using a good compressor but I liked it better using the TF's limiter instead.
As far as an eq it has tons of usable eq settings that you can change to if or when you are seeking a different sound. There are alot of great amps out here but the TF is very unique. I have used it with 4 different cabinets and it sounded good with all because of its eq possibilities. Right now I am really into the Tommix eq setting. Or its a slight alteration.
Bass and treble flat. Boost the 40 k, boost the 180 k, boost the 400 k and the 4 k. enhance at 3 to 4. The timbre one to the left.
Click to expand...
 

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