Tips for new fretless player?

Go slow and listen
1. Do not watch a tuner while you play. Use the tuner to tune before every practice session. The benefit of a fretless instrument is better harmonies that are not possible with a fretted instrument. Think back to your orchestra days when the conductor had everyone make micro adjustments to hit that perfect harmony.
2. Do not look at the fingerboard while you play.
3. Do not lose contact with the string (left hand) when you shift. Move slowly and listen as you slide into the note. Check against open strings. That can be octaves, major thirds, minor thirds, fourths, fifths, etc. Eventually, you won't even think about.

I also play cello and double bass. This is standard intonation practice.
 
If you played the cello that's great, the methodology to play in tune is the same, and cello being a classical instrument it's likely to be learned more rigorously than the bass. Apply anything you learnt with your left hand on the cello, especially rigorous hand shape and shifting, no vibratos when working on intonation.

I wouldn't rely on a tuner, that's just bad habits for the future. Work with drones, with open strings, and with a piano that is in tune. Sing a lot.
 
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FINALLY I have a fretless that is playable and I think I can keep. I sort of understand how things work as I wasn't half bad at cello in my strings methods class at Uni., But that was a LONG time ago and bass is another animal.

I'd like to become as good with it as a fretless bass, so I'm looking for tips/advice/practice routine, etc to get used to it. Love the "zingy" sound. I won't play it on Friday night's gig get, but have a rehearsal on Monday which will be the perfect time to try it playing with guitars and drums and maybe keyboard.

Thoughts?

View attachment 7000454

Use drone tones to check intonation. Play scales or patterns against the drone. It will be pretty obvious if you are out of tune with the drone. Have fun!


 
Not sure if this applies to everyone, but when I started playing a fretless in a band setting, I was super obsessed with making sure my intonation was as good as possible. With a lined fretboard like you also have, it was fairly easy to do. I even fooled a jazz guitarist into thinking I was playing a fretted, he said "I can see the frets", then I did a slide and he commented "your intonation is very good". Only thing, is that I was not making full use of the unique benefits of fretless. But then I became much more confident and was able to spend less time focusing on intonation and relax and play how I really wanted to. Basically, once you get the foundations of good intonation (by listening as well), like any other technique, it becomes a tool at your disposal that you can start doing on autopilot and focus on other things. Hope this might help.
 
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One thing that will make or break your fretless experience fir your own enjoyment and also the band's potential acceptance of the instrument is to make sure you can hear the intonation. I'm not saying necessarily turn the amp up, but more to the point, make sure you can really hear the midrange- that's where the intonation in the fretless sound occurs. Minimize "scooped" tone EQ. on the amp, and as necessary on the bass, itself.
 
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This is a less traditional recommendation, but as a primarily fretted bass player I got a surprising amount of benefit out of practicing two- and three-finger chords on fretless, particularly chords that include two notes on the same fret on adjacent strings (for example, the fifth and octave of a power chord). Moving from string to string, particularly on the same fret, is a very different experience on fretless and requires somewhat different hand positioning, and at least for me spending some time messing around with chords -- where you have to keep your hand locked in positions that allow correct intonation across multiple notes, often closely spaced together in terms of frets -- helped to make that process a lot more unconscious and natural when it comes to moving between notes like that in more standard bass lines and arpeggios. Even on fretted basses I play some chords or passages using a particular way of "stacking" my pinky and ring finger in precise line with one another that I developed for playing chords on fretless.
 
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.110 is extremely light for a low B. I've never played anything lighter than a .120 and that was way too light for me. These days my rounds are .45 to .130.

A .110 B would be pretty floppy (That's what SHE said!).
I just checked and it's actually .117 and change, so I'll call it a .118.
Tips? Yeah: Play it a bunch and have fun with it. It's not as hard as people make it.

Yes, listen and make sure you're in tune.
Yes, root-5-octave is more annoying to play than on fretted instruments and you have to adjust your left hand technique for it slightly sometimes.
Yes, it can take a little more finger/hand strength than a fretted instrument to make sure you play cleanly.

But really, it's not that different. And it's really fun. And the more fun you have with it, the better at it you'll get, and the quicker you'll get better.

And when you're able, incorporate open strings into the playing. You know they're gonna be in tune and are good reference pitches to hear relative to the reset of your playing.

And maybe do some ear-training on the fretless. Play whole-note octaves in unison and really listen to how slight finger adjustments put them in & out of tune. The same for 5ths and Maj & Min 3rds. Listen to how a major third is actually consonant ever so slightly sharp of the fret-line and then go slightly mad when playing a fretted bass and realize major 3rds are always slightly out of tune. 🤯 😇:laugh:

But mostly have fun with it.
Root 5 octave isn't that annoying or difficult. But you have made some good suggestions as others have. I'd like to think I have a pretty good ear. A quick anecdote related to that...

I was doing a musical and in the pit. Tuned up whatever bass I was playing at the time. First tune comes up and compared to the keyboard it was like fingernails on a chalkboard. I tuned perfectly to my Korg CA40. Being in the dark it was hard to see the black letters in the display. I don't recall how I put light on it.... but wouldn't you know, somehow the tuner got shifted to 441! Just that much was enough to make me crazy. Luckily I got it straightened out and back to 440 between the first and second number.
 
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Root 5 octave isn't that annoying or difficult.
Which goes back to my first point: Fretless isn't as hard as people make it out to be.

If you play root-5-octave on a fretted bass index-ring-pinky, all held down at the same time, you can't do that on the fretless because either the 5 or the octave will be out of tune. Either the 5 will be flat or the octave sharp. unless you twist your hand slightly to make sure the ring & pinky are exactly on the 5 and octave. Having to slightly twist your hand to play in tune is slightly more difficult/annoying than just playing the same shape on a fretted.

Or you have to use a different technique using one finger jumping to both notes, or use a different playing position, which is slightly more difficult or annoying.

But, again, neither are so difficult or annoying that it can't be done with a very mild adjustment.


I was doing a musical and in the pit. Tuned up whatever bass I was playing at the time. First tune comes up and compared to the keyboard it was like fingernails on a chalkboard. I tuned perfectly to my Korg CA40. Being in the dark it was hard to see the black letters in the display. I don't recall how I put light on it.... but wouldn't you know, somehow the tuner got shifted to 441! Just that much was enough to make me crazy. Luckily I got it straightened out and back to 440 between the first and second number.
Ooh. this reminds me of another fun way to practice:
Lots of old song recordings are not exactly tuned to A440. They probably were in tune to A440 in the studio, but were sped up or slowed down after they were recorded. Usually they're sped up to help all the songs fit on one side of a vinyl record. Sometimes just to add a bit of "energy". Either way, you play along with these songs on a fretted bass you either need to tune the bass to the song, or pitch-shift the song to A440.

But with your fretless you can really train your ears by leaving the bass tuned to A440, but playing somewhere between the frets, in tune with the track. A lot of listening and learning to trust your fingers.

First song that comes to mind is King Floyd's "Groove Me." It's VERY sharp. Almost 50 cents (1/4 step) sharp. But there's tons of older songs like this.
 
FINALLY I have a fretless that is playable and I think I can keep. I sort of understand how things work as I wasn't half bad at cello in my strings methods class at Uni., But that was a LONG time ago and bass is another animal.

I'd like to become as good with it as a fretless bass, so I'm looking for tips/advice/practice routine, etc to get used to it.
...
Thoughts?
...

Nice looking bass!! I will agree with @FullumMusic that it is not as hard as people make it, but it does require a certain discipline and mindset to ensure a good start in the right direction.

  • If you made progress as a cellist then you already understand the critical role of hand-shape and posture in achieving secure intonation. You will know that the arm, wrist, thumb and fingers need to work as a single unit that maintains a consistent 'attitude' relative to the neck and the strings: the arm moves from the shoulder to find and shift between position; the thumb 'registers' and stabilises the hand (without clamping) at the position; the fingers locate the notes within the hand-shape relative to the thumb. This 3-step process should be practiced slowly until it is a single smooth reflex motion.
  • If you don't already, I would recommend adopting a 3-finger (1,2,4 or 1,3,4) approach in positions below the 5th 'fret' (or 'stop' as it is known when there are no frets). This produces a natural and relaxed hand-shape with no internal stresses or overextended joints. The familiar 4-finger ('cello) approach works well in higher positions. I tend to make the transition somewhere between 6 and 9 depending on the line.
  • Regarding the left hand, in the beginning I recommend keeping the 'behind' fingers (1 & 2 if playing with 4; 1 if playing with 2/3, etc) down and in position because you are training your hand to produce the correct finger placement within the position. There is no need to keep them down with force, just train the fingers to 'feel' the correct spacing. In terms of eventual playing, once the hand is trained there is no need to hold the fingers in an open stance at all times, nor is there any need to keep fingers down behind the one making a stop.
  • In the first instance, whilst training the hand for intonation, try not to get too tempted to use vibrato or glissando to cover up discrepancies - you will lose hand-shape and find yourself making the wrong kind of correction. If you find yourself drifting out of tune, go back to the 3-step motion and start again.
  • Regarding vibrato, you should release all fingers other than the one stopping the note. Roll the tip of the finger up and down the string by keeping the thumb in the same place and allow the whole hand to rotate around the fixed tip of the thumb, controlled from the elbow.
  • Here's one that always causes a stir - MAKE SURE YOU SET THE INTONATION OF YOUR BRIDGE SADDLES. Some folks think this is not important because you can compensate with LH fingering adjustments. IMO/IME this is flawed thinking because it leads to inconsistent hand-shape between strings. Setting the saddles correctly means that all you have to do when string crossing is move your fingertip across perpendicular to the string and not across and along in a diagonal motion. Just use the edge of a credit card to stop the string between the double-dot (or in the middle of the 12th line) and proceed in the normal manner tuning the harmonic to the stop with the saddle screw.
It is a lot to take in but I hope it helps.
 
Root 5 octave isn't that annoying or difficult. But you have made some good suggestions as others have.
For the most part (and for what it's worth) I tend to use different fingers at the same stop for this type of thing:
4ths_1.jpg
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Some advice on intonation from a double bass player:

I once heard Rufus Reid say "Playing in tune means correcting your out-of-tune notes before anyone else notices that they are out of tune." Obviously this means you need to be close to begin with. But intonation is about your ear more than your fingers: you can't have perfect fingers, but you can have a perfect ear to correct your fingers.

So, always practice with a backing track to have an intonation reference for your ears.

Personally I never look at the bass when I play; on a double bass there is nothing to look at anyhow so it does me no good to begin with.

One of the great benefits of playing a fretless is that you can play intervals that sound "sweet" rather than equal temperament, so always trust your ear more than the lines or your tuner, whether you look or not. Listen to music made with acoustic non-equal-tempered instruments so you get used to the sound of such harmonies. Of course if everyone else is playing in equal temperament then you will want to do the same. But either way, develop your ear and let it guide you.

You need to be able to hear your pitch to play in tune. This means having a bright enough tone that will cut through the mix and enable you to hear your pitch immediately - the tone you hear doesn't have to be the same as the tone the audience hears. On the double bass, my left ear is right next to the neck so this helps in acoustic situations. Personally, in loud amplified situations, I have started to use earplug headphones as a sort of in-ear monitor for myself, so I can hear my own intonation easily. The tone in the headphones is brighter than what the audience hears just by the nature of the headphones vs the speaker cab. Jazz double bassists practice with the bow to improve their intonation because the brighter tone makes their intonation more obvious compared to playing pizzacato. So, whatever tone you use for practice or performance, think about how it will impact your ability to hear your own pitch, and the audience's perception of the intonation. The easiest thing would be a bright tone for you to help you play in tune, and a dark tone for everyone else to mask your bad intonation :)

On the double bass, we have references but they are not visual. The most important is the heel of the neck, where it meets the body. We feel this with our thumb - it marks the D or Eb on the G string, depending on the bass. So, if you want a reference I would suggest putting a puffy sticker or something on the back of the neck for your thumb. This will give you a physical reference for your hand placement, which will be more helpful than a visual reference.

We double bass players are also careful to have the instrument positioned in the same spot all the time - this is easy because it is so big and it doesn't move around when we play. For example, double bassists generally either play sitting or standing, but don't transition between the two because it throws off the whole relationship with the instrument. So, try to have your bass guitar at the same height, angle, etc. so that your hand position will always be the same. And make sure the neck isn't flopping around all over the place while you play.
 
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Don’t get too hung up on Jacoisms; if, while noodling around, getting your footing on the instrument you can figure out some of his licks/techniques, that’s cool, but if you can’t, don’t loose sleep over it. Yes, he was an icon, but not the be-all, end-all. There are plenty of other stylists…Percy Jones, Mick Karn, Fernando Saunders(my faves)and so on to gleen inspiration from. Also, don’t go out of your way to over-emphasize “hey, look at me, I’m playing fretless!”…subtlety has its own rewards. I didn’t realize for a long time that Boz Burrell played fretless in Bad Company, but then going back to hear all these understated slides and fills made it more interesting.
 
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Nice looking bass!! I will agree with @FullumMusic that it is not as hard as people make it, but it does require a certain discipline and mindset to ensure a good start in the right direction.

  • If you made progress as a cellist then you already understand the critical role of hand-shape and posture in achieving secure intonation. You will know that the arm, wrist, thumb and fingers need to work as a single unit that maintains a consistent 'attitude' relative to the neck and the strings: the arm moves from the shoulder to find and shift between position; the thumb 'registers' and stabilises the hand (without clamping) at the position; the fingers locate the notes within the hand-shape relative to the thumb. This 3-step process should be practiced slowly until it is a single smooth reflex motion.
  • If you don't already, I would recommend adopting a 3-finger (1,2,4 or 1,3,4) approach in positions below the 5th 'fret' (or 'stop' as it is known when there are no frets). This produces a natural and relaxed hand-shape with no internal stresses or overextended joints. The familiar 4-finger ('cello) approach works well in higher positions. I tend to make the transition somewhere between 6 and 9 depending on the line.
  • Regarding the left hand, in the beginning I recommend keeping the 'behind' fingers (1 & 2 if playing with 4; 1 if playing with 2/3, etc) down and in position because you are training your hand to produce the correct finger placement within the position. There is no need to keep them down with force, just train the fingers to 'feel' the correct spacing. In terms of eventual playing, once the hand is trained there is no need to hold the fingers in an open stance at all times, nor is there any need to keep fingers down behind the one making a stop.
  • In the first instance, whilst training the hand for intonation, try not to get too tempted to use vibrato or glissando to cover up discrepancies - you will lose hand-shape and find yourself making the wrong kind of correction. If you find yourself drifting out of tune, go back to the 3-step motion and start again.
  • Regarding vibrato, you should release all fingers other than the one stopping the note. Roll the tip of the finger up and down the string by keeping the thumb in the same place and allow the whole hand to rotate around the fixed tip of the thumb, controlled from the elbow.
  • Here's one that always causes a stir - MAKE SURE YOU SET THE INTONATION OF YOUR BRIDGE SADDLES. Some folks think this is not important because you can compensate with LH fingering adjustments. IMO/IME this is flawed thinking because it leads to inconsistent hand-shape between strings. Setting the saddles correctly means that all you have to do when string crossing is move your fingertip across perpendicular to the string and not across and along in a diagonal motion. Just use the edge of a credit card to stop the string between the double-dot (or in the middle of the 12th line) and proceed in the normal manner tuning the harmonic to the stop with the saddle screw.
It is a lot to take in but I hope it helps.
I understood everything you said, but for the following wording"
  • Regarding the left hand, in the beginning I recommend keeping the 'behind' fingers (1 & 2 if playing with 4; 1 if playing with 2/3, etc) down and in position because you are training your hand to produce the correct finger placement within the position. There is no need to keep them down with force, just train the fingers to 'feel' the correct spacing. In terms of eventual playing, once the hand is trained there is no need to hold the fingers in an open stance at all times, nor is there any need to keep fingers down behind the one making a stop.
The one thing I remember from my strings class (Mr. Krolick's favorite mantra was KFD- keep fingers down, as well as his signature red socks). I try to use the same concept even with fretted instruments. Not always successful, but aware. Interestingly, I tend to use more of a vibrato motion on fretted basses than I do on my fretless. Go figure. But as a MODERN trumpet player we tend to use vibrato judiciously with flat tones, leading to a vibrato to sweeten things up rather than depend on it for intonation. From trumpet I'm used to having to have the attack happen in tune, not depending on the vibrato.

Bridge intonation is an important point. The original owner of this bass changed the bridge to a generic looking thing that makes setting intonation challenging because the adjustment isn't like the Fender (or other) bridges where you just adjust a screw at the base of the bridge, but have to loosen the strings totally and manually manipulate the position of the saddles. There is a routed space where the bridge gets mounted, so I hope to find one to replace what appears to be a cheap bridge. Why the original was removed, I have no idea. [photo below]
Any idea where I can find a replacement bridge that might fit that routing? 3 7/8" x 2 3/16",
For the most part (and for what it's worth) I tend to use different fingers at the same stop for this type of thing:
Me too. I tend to do that on fretted basses rather than bridge fingers over except when necessary.

OK>>>> Did an intonation check and the only string that seemed out was the E string which was a few cents flat. It's an interesting bridge, but I my guesstimate of the adjustment seems to be good and the intonation on that string now appears to have been corrected.
It was very intersting that the saddles are a two-piece saddle with the part that the strings rest on come out of a "nest" and are sort of angled bit like nut slots are, with one side being lower than the other. One came off in my hand unexpectedly when I removed the E string to access the lock screw. I have to assume that the taller side of the slot faces toward the headstock to create a solid witness point [yes/no?].

I would like to think that my approach to bass is making fretless relatively easy. For me the trick will be the pitches that the other instruments lay down so I can tell if I'm in tune or not. It's easy to be a few cents off without reference pitches. I'll bring this bass to rehearsal on Monday, but tonight's gig will either be covered by my P5 or J5. Not decided yet. too fickle.

Thanks for the advice!


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@coldsalmon Also good advice. I'd like to think I have a pretty good ear and my hearing is still pretty much intact, at least for intonation/tuning purposes. It's a long story, but as a trumpet player I learned to listen to overtones as well as fundamentals. While controversial, the modern sound of a trumpet (in classical music) is a warm sound, but still articulate. I remember, in one rehearsal, sitting next to an outstanding player who was hired as principal for my orchestra, and his sound, while considered warm, was dead. I determined that the reason for this was because the harmonic overtones were flat to his fundamental pitches. After that incident I became very keen to listen not only to the intonation of the fundamental, but the overtones as well. Not so important for guitar and bass, but there are some instances where this becomes apparent. I changed from DR Sunbeams on my J5 to Elixirs because the sound was a bit too brilliant for my purposes, and I attribute that to the overtones being a bit too strident. The Elixirs tamped that down a bit and I'm happier now. Just saying.
 
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The one thing I remember from my strings class (Mr. Krolick's favorite mantra was KFD- keep fingers down, as well as his signature red socks). I try to use the same concept even with fretted instruments. Not always successful, but aware.
It isn't necessary once your hand-shape is fully developed - watch some cellists like Jacqueline duPre or Mischa Maisky - as soon as the vibrato is used all the other fingers come off.
use vibrato judiciously with flat tones, leading to a vibrato to sweeten things up rather than depend on it for intonation.
Absolutely! The beauty of the fretless bass is you can bias the vibrato on the flat side, pushing quickly up to pitch and allowing a slower fall back before pushing again in an asymmetric (sawtooth) manner - much sweeter than just going sharp as you have to with a fret in the equation.