Double Bass Tips on playing with a piano-bass duo?

[Hans Gruber]

To this point... here's Ray and Duke Ellington in duo. I need to listen to this album more.

Dang. That is gorgeous. I still stand by how Ray Brown's musicality has never been surpassed, and in this case, Ellington, too. They both leave such good space for each other.

 

[Pings Bass]

I had a regular duo act with a pianist/singer, and what I played was not much different than when we had a drummer. If the pianist is competent, you just gotta keep time and nail the changes. It the pianist gets lost in the form, stick close to the roots. And don't forget to swing.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Rootless voicings...

Someone posted a video with Mark Levine explaining that this is a bit of a myth.

Actually here it is, starts at about 17:15.

 

[JazznFunk]

Rootless voicings...

Someone posted a video with Mark Levine explaining that this is a bit of a myth.

Actually here it is, starts at about 17:15.

I listened. I think the lesson is that context matters. It's not a myth that 'rootless voicings' exist, but I agree that it's a myth that pianists should always play rootless voicings with a bassist. He mentions Bill Evans and Red Garland, who definitely had those left hand voicings which allowed LaFaro, etc. a lot of freedom. Evans also trusted LaFaro to hit the root most of the time, even if it was shrouded in the middle of a longer phrase/figure as part of their dialogue. Rhythm choices by the pianist matter more than whether or not they have the root in their voicing IMO/IME. If someone is chunking out chords with roots big and fat on the bottom, that hems in the bass player in some instances. Conversely, if the pianist has a lighter touch and plays inversions which don't chunk out the root so prominently, it frees both players up. I've played with guitarists as well who like to really have that fat root note on the bottom and it's the same deal if they are chunking along and not leaving space. Space is the biggest factor, IMO.... and dynamics.

 

[bass player 53]

With all due respect to Mark Levine, he cites two outstanding, monster jazz pianists who obviously know how to play in any format. I'm not trying to be mean, but I've had to play with a lot of pianists who are mainly cocktail or of what might be generically called the 'swing era' type, and these people have a heavy left hand. They are usually solo performers and do play a lot of roots that either duplicate or clash with a bassist's bass line. Experienced players here all know what I'm talking about.
As a pianist too, I think there are a lot of redeeming features to rootless voicings, 'Bill Evans Voicings', etc.
Giving examples from the very best in the whole history of jazz is incredibly
inspiring, but maybe we can be realistic
too. The people cited have devoted their entire remarkable lives and fantastic talent to this art form. I think
this is a different situation than what the OP is experiencing.

 

[Virwill7]

Agreed, but I think it's important to point out that no one suggested imitation. The point (or mine, at the very least) in suggesting that record (and Charlie's playing) is to listen to the space and economy that Charlie allowed. Let the music build. Don't walk right off the bat. Allow the melody to breathe. Listen. The 'support and instigate' thing definitely doesn't come until you get years of experience and develop your ears. 'Instigating' for the sake of doing it usually isn't musical, and it's important to note that. It's the equivalent of like having a conversation and then randomly inserting a bunch of stuff that isn't really relevant or needed, just to be heard. Sometimes it's better to say nothing and just listen.

If I were going to absolutely suggest someone to listen to before Charlie, etc., it would be Ray Brown. I have Ray Brown's bass book and still work through those exercises. I also have Michael Moore's method book too. The scale/walking/etudes in those books are required study IMO. Charlie's playing, regardless of his harmonic choices and artistic individuality, is a masterclass in supportive feel and tone that are universally applicable, IMO.

Thanks, JazznFunk. Are you referring to Brown's Bass Method for Jazz and Blues? And do you think there's enough applicable there for a "young" electric bassist studying jazz and blues to be worthwhile picking it up? Asking for a 75-year-old friend

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I love these kinds of formats. If you have the possibility of rehearsing with the pianist my preference is to have a lot of intros and outros to pull on. Always set up the tune before you launch into the melody. Vamps, descending progressions from V, use the bridge as intro, etc

Anything that will add variety and break the monotony. Dont forget to use different time feels, styles, meters, etc. Choosing the right repertoire to establish this level of variety is important. I don't like to choose tunes at random. Leave that for the private sessions with friends.

Don't forget to trade and vary to the trading. Just anything to leaning each tune as well.

 

[JazznFunk]

Thanks, JazznFunk. Are you referring to Brown's Bass Method for Jazz and Blues? And do you think there's enough applicable there for a "young" electric bassist studying jazz and blues to be worthwhile picking it up? Asking for a 75-year-old friend

Oh goodness, yes. Ray Brown's Bass Method (Essential Scales, Patterns, Exercises) is great for beginners. Maybe they amended or added to the title in later releases? That's the one I have. As mentioned earlier, I still reference that one and Michael Moore's Bass Method to this day.... especially if I have want to get 'back to basics' to shore up deficiencies or bad habits.

 

[Ross Kratter]

Playing duo with great pianists has long been one of my favorite formats. There's just so much space, so many possibilities!
I would definitely check out Kenny Barron and Dave Holland's duo record.

 

[sean_on_bass]

I listened. I think the lesson is that context matters. It's not a myth that 'rootless voicings' exist, but I agree that it's a myth that pianists should always play rootless voicings with a bassist. He mentions Bill Evans and Red Garland, who definitely had those left hand voicings which allowed LaFaro, etc. a lot of freedom. Evans also trusted LaFaro to hit the root most of the time, even if it was shrouded in the middle of a longer phrase/figure as part of their dialogue. Rhythm choices by the pianist matter more than whether or not they have the root in their voicing IMO/IME. If someone is chunking out chords with roots big and fat on the bottom, that hems in the bass player in some instances. Conversely, if the pianist has a lighter touch and plays inversions which don't chunk out the root so prominently, it frees both players up. I've played with guitarists as well who like to really have that fat root note on the bottom and it's the same deal if they are chunking along and not leaving space. Space is the biggest factor, IMO.... and dynamics.

Agreed. What i take away is that "always play rootless voicings with a bass player" is extreme and that inclusion of the root can sometimes be OK. Don't want OP showing up at the gig and demanding the piano player always play rootless voicings or thinking piano players that add the root sometimes don't know what they are doing.

 

[Don Kasper]

Kenny Barron plays "rootless left-hand voicings" for the first 3:02 of this track. (@3:03 he does play an F in his LH pinky...)
I think he & Dave H. sound pretty good, and Dave is providing Ample Harmonic Definition (tm) in his basslines, so no need for any REDUNDANT LH ROOTS (tm).
Sheesh...
But, that's me.
IMFO, of course

 

[scrubhelmet]

You might enjoy this playlist of Piano-Bass Duo jazz. Disclaimer: This contains a fair amount of my own albums, plus loads of other great duo recordings. Here's the Apple version if you prefer that.

Unfortunately I neither have Spotify nor Apple Music. Only YouTube Music since it comes free with YouTube Premium.

I do like listening to other people's works.

Currently listening to JnF's suggestion of Night and The City.

You should definitely have that discussion, though.

Yeah, if she pushes through with it, we'd definitely practice many many times.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

One more thought: One can wish that the pianist makes room for you in the best situations but it's not always possible. You have to learn how to make them sound good anyway even if they can't control themselves. Playing the 5th or the 3rd on the downbeat may be good prep for these situations, at least until the pianist learns to play differently.

If the pianist suddenly decides that they're going to walk a bass line, the bassist needs to adapt and play counterpoint, or something else entirely.

My view of the world is that you can see it as someone stepping on your turf or your can see it as a gift for you to make music differently. I choose the latter every single time. The question is whether I can rise to that occasion or not.

That's the thing about some of the greats; many of them know how to make the best of every situation including playing with beginners. It's always asking every moment what the music is asking of us and creating the most amount of beauty possible.

 

[John Goldsby]

Unfortunately I neither have Spotify nor Apple Music. Only YouTube Music since it comes free with YouTube Premium.

I do like listening to other people's works.

Currently listening to JnF's suggestion of Night and The City.

Yeah, if she pushes through with it, we'd definitely practice many many times.

Hey @scrubhelmet — The Spotify link takes you to open-Spotify even if you don't have a subscription—it just opens in your browser. Of course, if you boycott Spotify on principle then ignore that and stick with YouTube

 

[ctrlzjones]

Please allow me to pirate this and share a concert video (audio) with Renee Rosnes and Buster Williams.

I was never able to find the first part, but I'd love to listen if somebody is aware of it; or of a recording released.

 

[Don Kasper]

TF and GM get along just fine with MINIMAL (if any) LH bass notes in the Piano voicings. It is unnecessary for the pianist to WASTE a finger (or effort) on the ROOT, in this style of jazz.
NOTE: TF does play some LH bass notes during the bass solo, but only to support the Harmonic form which is a 20 Bar Blues.
IMFO, of course.
Sheesh...

 

[sean_on_bass]

@Don Kasper in your opinion, is it ever tasteful to add a root somewhere in a voicing when playing with a bass player? not a root in the bass, but somewhere else in the harmony. legit question, as my piano skills are pretty basic and my ear is not what yours is.

 

[Don Kasper]

@Don Kasper in your opinion, is it ever tasteful to add a root somewhere in a voicing when playing with a bass player? not a root in the bass, but somewhere else in the harmony. legit question, as my piano skills are pretty basic and my ear is not what yours is.

Hi sean_
It's been my experience in transcribing and performing/listening, that there is no Harmonic Need (tm) to have the Root of a chord in the chord voicing in this style of jazz.
The 3 note voicing below "F7(13)" is exactly what Tommy Flanagan is playing on the first 2 beats of m.1 on Blue Twenty. It would be Harmonically Redundant to play an F in that voicing - "like bringing sand to the beach", as the saying goes.
Is it ever "tasteful"? I doubt it, but it would be like putting a teaspoon of sugar on a donut. It's not "wrong", just unnecessary, and wasteful.
If you develop your Harmonic/Piano skills, many (hidden?) structures are revealed.
Get to a piano, play the 3 note voicing, and then play a nice Low F and you'll hear what is necessary to define that Harmony, at that moment.
Thanks for your interest and I would encourage you to continue your "piano skills" - this was/is the most significant tool in my Harmonic development over the past 45 yrs.
IMFO, of course.
Thanks.

 

[bass player 53]

Along the lines of Don's excellent
comments are the modern voicings,
which have been rather standard
for a while now:

 

[lurk]

I don't know what makes this happen exactly, but some guys are able to play a fair amount of roots so they don't bug me in a duo. "Some" is the key word. I think it has to do with rhythmic placement and touch and somehow making them not sound like a bassline. This is much easier I think with a piano rather than the awful electric devices I'm playing with more and more. I suspect I would enjoy playing with Mark Levine.