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Tired of 4/4?

#22
colcifer said:
You need to work on jazz music more.
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Actually, the question interests me because I play a fair bit of jazz but don't listen to a wide range if it. (my collection is mostly old 40s / 50s plus Diana Krall - pop jazz I guess).

So I think I know what swing is but it won't surprise me if there is an aspect of this where I need to learn more.

I know when swing gets faster you tend not to hit the "and" dots as much but to me that lilt us still there just understated because of the musician's limits.
 
#24
I'll never get tired of 4/4. So much wonderful music has been made, and continues to be made, with 4/4 as the foundation. I love to hear songs like James Brown's "I Got The Feelin'" and "Mother Popcorn," where the drummer does really cool things within the 4/4 frame.
 
#28
Also, although rare, it's not entirely impossible to find "pop" songs that aren't in straight 4/4 and "flow" just fine. there aren't a ton of them but there are enough to serve as a proof of concept...

this thread (the intro moves all over the place time-wise, which I've outlined for a fellow TBer in this thread)

Invalid Link Removed (main riff moves between 4/4 and 3/4)

Pink Floyd - Money(7/4 until the solo)

Invalid Link Removed(5/4)

Invalid Link Removed(7/4)

Seal - Kiss from a Rose (this one is in 6/8, but also drops in measures of 3/8 occasionally)

Jimi Hendrix - Manic Depression (3/4)

Neil Young - Words (Between the Lines of Age)(the intro and bridge are a measure each of 6/8 and 5/8 alternating, but the verse and chorus are 4/4)

I can't imagine any of those songs being nearly as good if those bands would have just shoehorned the riffs into regular 4/4 time like most bands do with most songs... most of the time.
 
#31
I enjoy odd time signatures, but I would say they need to be used in moderation and with a lot of attention to the flow of the song. "Money," "Black Dog" and a lot of Yes tunes succeed at this. But there's a lot of just doing it for the sake of it that goes nowhere for me.

You can't dance to an odd time signature. The human body has two sides. I have no problem with the vast bulk of music being in good old all-natural organic 4/4.
 
#33
fingerbun said:
I have to admit I can't think of an example where the ratio is 1:1. Can you suggest one?
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You are right, 1:1 indicates "perfectly straight".

I probably should've written the ratio more like 1.0000000001 : 1, as a starting point in an extremely fast tempo.

The point was to show that the ratio can vary considerably and is NOT in triplet-like subdivisions (2:1 = shuffle).

So no, I cannot suggest a Swing with a ratio of 1:1.
 
#34
hrodbert696 said:
I enjoy odd time signatures, but I would say they need to be used in moderation and with a lot of attention to the flow of the song. "Money," "Black Dog" and a lot of Yes tunes succeed at this. But there's a lot of just doing it for the sake of it that goes nowhere for me.
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I just don't understand why everyone keeps saying this. You can say the same thing about 4/4.

You can't dance to an odd time signature. The human body has two sides. I have no problem with the vast bulk of music being in good old all-natural organic 4/4.
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Who says you can't dance to anything outside of 4/4? That's just ridiculous. I mean, Waltzing comes to mind pretty quickly, as does Indian music.

I guess though that my opinion probably stems at least partially from the fact that I don't really listen to or play any sort of "dance" music. It doesn't really interest me at all and it tends to be the worst offender in regards to destroying flow and musicality for the sake of being forced into a particular time (4/4). This concept of approaching a song with the idea that it MUST be in a particular time signature before you even begin writing is exactly what everyone keeps talking down on for "odd time" stuff, but yet the whole "we decided on a time signature first and then shoehorned a riff or melody into that time signature" thing is exactly my PROBLEM with 4/4... it seems extremely (almost humorously) hypocritical to me.
 
#35
Re dancing to odd time: we are going to find out hopefully on Wed. They dance fine to 4/4 in many flavours.

The drummer wanted to play something in 7 so I came up with a 7/4 funk groove which I laid on them last week. It fell down and capitulated to a 4.4 in short order but we have a practice on Tues to make it into something presentable.
 
#36
Dancing is just a reflection of something more basic, which is, as I said, that the human body has two sides and people respond more naturally to symmetrical, even rhythms. That can mean 2/4 or 6/8 but most often people seem to instinctively gravitate to 4/4. Even waltzing is the exception that proves the rule, because most waltzes are composed in four-bar phrases, though each bar is in 3/4 time, so the total phrase comes out an even number of steps. Try composing a waltz with three 3/4 measures in each phrase and I suspect you'd see as much of a train wreck in the ballroom as you would with people trying to dance to a 7/4 song.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think most of the melodies that people work out spontaneously in their heads turn out to be 4/4 melodies. Most songs in odd time signature, the writers said, "Let's do something in an unusual time - how about 5/4?" and then set out to create a line around that idea. There isn't anything wrong with that, but it's no surprise that most non-musicians do not necessarily respond warmly to the results. You could certainly choreograph a dance to 5/4 or 7/4 or whatever, but again most people will not naturally fall into the rhythm of it.

Maybe non-Western music is different, I don't really know too much about it. But that's what I think I see happening in the western tradition.
 
#38
Stick_Player said:
The point was to show that the ratio can vary considerably and is NOT in triplet-like subdivisions (2:1 = shuffle).

So no, I cannot suggest a Swing with a ratio of 1:1.
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Hi Stickman, I am posting not to argue but to educate myself. I totally accept that what you say is true, but I am not a jazz aficionado and I can't think of examples that support what you say.

That's why I'd find it helpful if you could suggest a couple of tracks that are swing, but not 12/8. So that I can understand it, not because you need to prove it.

I play a lot of jazz standards, both big band charts and real book stuff, but I don't have large variety of jazz in my music collection, because the jazz that moves me is mostly 40's pop (Andrews Sisters, Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey, etc). So when I play Autum Leaves, All Of Me or Satin Doll as swing, it comes out as 12/8, basically emulating what I am hearing on those records (as much as you can hear the bass on a 78 lol).

The fact that I keep getting calls, and that noone has said to me that I am not getting the feel suggests to me I am doing ok on those pieces at least. But I do want to know what I am missing.
 
#40
hrodbert696 said:
Dancing is just a reflection of something more basic, which is, as I said, that the human body has two sides and people respond more naturally to symmetrical, even rhythms. That can mean 2/4 or 6/8 but most often people seem to instinctively gravitate to 4/4. Even waltzing is the exception that proves the rule, because most waltzes are composed in four-bar phrases, though each bar is in 3/4 time, so the total phrase comes out an even number of steps. Try composing a waltz with three 3/4 measures in each phrase and I suspect you'd see as much of a train wreck in the ballroom as you would with people trying to dance to a 7/4 song.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think most of the melodies that people work out spontaneously in their heads turn out to be 4/4 melodies. Most songs in odd time signature, the writers said, "Let's do something in an unusual time - how about 5/4?" and then set out to create a line around that idea. There isn't anything wrong with that, but it's no surprise that most non-musicians do not necessarily respond warmly to the results. You could certainly choreograph a dance to 5/4 or 7/4 or whatever, but again most people will not naturally fall into the rhythm of it.

Maybe non-Western music is different, I don't really know too much about it. But that's what I think I see happening in the western tradition.
Click to expand...

I'll agree that less talented groups will start with the concept of "let's do something in an unusual time - how about 5/4?," but personally I tend to avoid that sort of thing and the things I do listen to don't generally come off that way to my ear. OTOH, most of the stuff I here in 4/4 comes off as if they started off by saying "Ok, let's write something in 4/4" and it bugs me as much as the "let's play in 5/4" thing seems to bother a lot of you guys... in fact, it seems like the same sort of non-musical shoehorning in both scenarios.

To the rest of your post... two sets of odd numbers always end back up at an even set. So, a waltz with 3 measures of 3/4 will come back around to the top for the casual listener every 6 measures. If the song is constructed with "flow" in mind then it will likely feel quite natural and be just fine to dance to.

Also, I don't believe that the sole purpose of creating music is for others to dance to, and thus that part of the conversation is only touching on a certain percentage of music as a whole anyhow. At my band's last show there were plenty of people in the crowd bobbing, swaying, and toe tapping with our stuff without seeming to be confused at all... including sections that alternate back and forth between 6/8 and 5/8, a bunch of stuff in 7/4, some 5/4, a big heavy riff that goes from 4/4 to 7/8 repeatedly, etc, etc. From the reaction, I would guess most of them didn't even realize we were playing in an "odd" time to begin with... and we certainly don't say "let's make this alternate between 6/8 and 5/8" or "oooh, let's do a riff in 7/4" we just write riffs and melodies that we think sound good, without any preconceived notions of which time signature we should play in before hand.

It's starting to sound like I'm trying to say "my band is better than your band," and let me just be clear that is not what I'm getting at here. I'm just trying to relate my personal experiences with playing and creating music to the topic, so I apologize ahead of time if it seems otherwise.

Lastly, I do understand the argument that people are used to hearing things in 4/4, and thus there is a certain amount of sense in intentionally writing parts to fit that time signature. However, I'm trying to point out that doing so is not entirely unlike the concept of intentionally writing a riff in an "odd" time just because it's NOT 4/4. They are two sides of the same coin, and if you're the type of guy (you in a general sense, not YOU in particular) who thinks it's lame to intentionally play in an "odd" time simply for the sake of being different, then you should take a look at your own writing as well to see the parallels of intentionally playing in 4/4 for the sake of NOT being different. I personally have made a conscious effort to move past that sort of thinking and I'm simply suggesting to others that maybe they should at least explore the idea as well.
 

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