To Mic or to DI? That is the question!

[Downunderwonder]

Bass spills into vocal mics. Low SPL from vocalist.

SPL drops fantasticically with distance so I don't believe for 1sec that drums spill into a bass close mic'd. 4ft vs 2''.

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

Good sound guys will ask for both

Actually they don´t unless you ask for. It´s simpler and cleaner to take DI signal straight to the board. Unless the bassist asks for I never put a mic for bass for live gigs, there are so many other problems to take care for in a live situation than the bass. IMO

 

[Mark Reccord]

When using a very colored cabinet or something that has a very specific voice, such as an 810E or NV610, then it's a crime not to mic the cabinet, IMHO. When using a much more transparent cab, I can dig a DI. If it's a solid-state amp, post pre is cool. If it's a tube amp, then post power section with a DI in parallel works well.

My one and main rule when micing a cabinet is that if it's a two-way cabinet and the woofers aren't full range, either 1) a little bit of the tweeter needs to make it into the mic, or 2) the mic signal needs to be supplemented with a DI to cover highs (and also gives you the option of adding lows that the cab may lack).

Honestly, the only time I've gotten even a little bit of static over using a mic has been from bush league sound "engineers." You know the guys: their system is a hodge podge of worn out Peavey and Carvin mains from the early 1980s, their monitors buzz all night, and the bass would sound like mushy poop soup regardless if the signal were from a mic or a direct line. With that said, I did invest in a PR40 for times I want my cabinet miced. Many sound engineers don't carry dedicated dynamic mics for bass. Kick mics are usually too scooped, and I personally hate 57s on a bass cabinet.

Agreed, though I think a Beta 57A is a great mic on a bass cab (different than an SM, I know.)

Sometimes the guys operating flashy new systems are still bush leaguers.

Bass spills into vocal mics. Low SPL from vocalist.

SPL drops fantasticically with distance so I don't believe for 1sec that drums spill into a bass close mic'd. 4ft vs 2''.

There's no significant bleed from drums or whatever in a situation where a bass cab is close-miked with a directional microphone. It's totally inconsequential compared to everything bleeding into the vocal mics. That's the lamest excuse ever to not mic a bass amp.

Different things work in different situations and some flexibility and understanding from the people on both sides of the mixing desk is helpful. Knee jerk refusal to even try things on either side is counterproductive and I feel for anyone who is met with that kind of attitude. I've spent a lot of time on the faders side of the desk and I learned early on that a bit of diplomacy and most importantly communication makes a colossal difference in how things go. Even in a high pressure situation like a festival you can find a minute or two to chat with the band to try to get a quick idea of what they are all about.

 

[Geri O]

Actually they don´t unless you ask for. It´s simpler and cleaner to take DI signal straight to the board. Unless the bassist asks for I never put a mic for bass for live gigs, there are so many other problems to take care for in a live situation than the bass. IMO

Actually, yes, sir, they do. Sorry if your experience has ben otherwise.

Good sound guys have those problems under control long before they have to worry about the bass.

Whether or not I am/was a good one can be argued (and with album credits as FOH mixer on several live recording releases and still FOH for the MS Symphony Orchestra, I've had my moments), but my festival input list has both DI and mic inputs for the bass.

Admittedly, as a bassist lately, I haven't seen both mics and DIs too often. Which, frankly, goes along with what the theme of my post has been about to start with.

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

Admittedly, as a bassist lately, I haven't seen both mics and DIs too often.

This, and as a sound guy I´ll put on a mic only if the bassist asks for. Sorry, I try to keep things simple...it worked and it works for me. Still have to hear a better sound from a mic in comparison to a DI.

Now, studio is a whole other world.

Good sound guys have those problems under control long before they have to worry about the bass

Ok, I´ll argue this. Good sound guys can´t predict all the problems that can occur in a live situation. Maybe it´s just me that I passed through so many live situations I can´t even remember all. The difference is to have the experience to face the problems and react in the less time possible. I passed from metal, rock, pop, rap, reggae to classical choir and orchestra live shows in such different acoustics (from small bar gigs to open air and concert halls), from crap behringer gear to the latest digital live boards and in between.....and still encounter new challenges to affront.

 

[zombie1965]

Post EQ DI signal for me is good enough but ill push for both a DI and a mic mix to send to FOH. what happens from there on is out of your hands but a good live sound engineer will make it sound great. Sometimes I am aware that my sound isn't what I'd like it to be and ill have a chat with the engineer. A good sound engineer will take what you say into account and work with you, others will just do what they Like.

The best live sound guy I ever worked with had me play my sound, he listened, came looked at my settings on the head, took a pic of my EQ then with just a pre EQ DI dialed as close as possible into the FOH. He tweaked the sound a bit to fit the room. A video recording taken of the gig proves he did a spectacular job. Great dude!

 

[punchdrunk]

I say, get a bass you really like the sound of. Get used to the basses sound. Send THAT sound to the front of house via the cleanest DI you can acquire. You'll never think/worry about it much again.

 

[EastCoastThump]

I say, get a bass you really like the sound of. Get used to the basses sound. Send THAT sound to the front of house via the cleanest DI you can acquire. You'll never think/worry about it much again.

In general and especially for gigs that call for a straight-wire-to-the-board bass tone, that's good advice. But that road won't get you home when you're hauling a lot of FX, glowing tubes, or highly voiced cabs as part of your sonic freight.

 

[tfer]

I'm in charge of the end on the right. They're in charge of the end on the left.

The end on the right gets plugged into a microphone. To limit arguments, I carry my own.

 

[Geri O]

I'm in charge of the end on the right. They're in charge of the end on the left.

The end on the right gets plugged into a microphone. To limit arguments, I carry my own.

Gee, not condescending or anything.

I'll bet you make friends with all the sound guys.

 

[Downunderwonder]

If my bass doesn't sound great out front in an open field it isn't what's coming out of the left end at fault.

 

[tfer]

Gee, not condescending or anything.

I'll bet you make friends with all the sound guys.

We usually run our own sound. But in the instances we don't, I rarely concern myself with the sound guy. They are usually pretty cool, and don't have any problem with my system at all.

As long as the FOH gets a clean signal, I haven't found one who gave a damn whether it came from a mic or a box.

 

[two fingers]

I usually get dragged into long arguments about this (being both a bassist and a sound guy).

It really is this simple. Physics. The physics of a small bass rig and whatever place you rehearse in are COMPLETELY different from the physics of huge PA cabinets and a large club.

So, in short, "your tone" just might sound like vomit pudding in band mix through a big PA. And the argument that a "good sound man can make any tone sit in any mix" is just stupid. A good sound man cannot change the laws of physics.

Do what you will with that information. This is a hit and run post. No matter how many of you quote it or reply to it I will not return to defend it. I have been down this road too many times.

OP, best of luck with your tone quest.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Ahh Talkbass: Where people have no problem dropping $2500 on a rig, but also have no problem with their FOH signal being taken straight off their bass with a cheap DI box, because their rig "is just a monitor" and "the audience can't tell the difference."

 

[rob2966]

I have a Radial Bassbone on my pedalboard and I run DI out of that to the FOH. My amp (LMII + Berg HS410) is only used for monitoring on stage. The bulk of my tone comes from me and the bass and I run a more hi-fi (for lack of a better term) sound so my DI sound is quite similar to the sound coming from my amp. I often get compliments on my bass sound from sound people (Sadowsky's to DI) and I am sure they appreciate the simplicity. That said, if your tone is colored by a cranked up tube amp I can see why you would want to capture that using a good mic.

Later
Rob

 

[Sackvegas1]

Ok, first gig in the books as of last night with my new band. It went great!

So, obviously as I am rolling my rig on stage the sound guy asks if my amp had an XLR, of course it does BUT I told him I wanted him to mic my cabinet instead. Ok, so we did that and the show went on.

So now, this is obviously personal preference but when it comes to my tone I am extremely picky and particular about it. I am honestly ignorant of XLR/DI out to the mains..for those that choose to go the route of XLR/DI how does that affect your tone? I heard another bassist last night that went DI, bass was low in the mix and his "tone" wasn't bad but it's definitely not a sound I would want to project. It was kind of generic bass tone.

I have my head and cabinet for a reason, it gives me the tone I want but if I hand that off to front of house, then there goes "my" tone yes?

This is just something i'm trying to wrap my head around because for me until I could hear different, I will have them mic'ing my cabinet.

I am thinking perhaps you can keep a close tone by saying going amp head->DI Pedal->Front of house?

I'm playing this weekend at a club that has a very nice sound system in a large (for a bar) area. Unfortunately it is way too loud and the sound guy consistently buries the bass in the lower frequency mix. The bass drum is extremely loud and pretty much saturates the lower frequencies. He uses a direct for the bass. However, this time I'm going to insist he mic my newly acquired SVT-CL and 808he cabinet so I can get some mids in the mix. Hopefully this will work. Nothing more frustrating than watching a bassist playing notes above the 5th fret and not hearing it....particularly when the bassist is me.

 

[Sackvegas1]

I'm playing this weekend at a club that has a very nice sound system in a large (for a bar) area. Unfortunately it is way too loud and the sound guy consistently buries the bass in the lower frequency mix. The bass drum is extremely loud and pretty much saturates the lower frequencies. He uses a direct for the bass. However, this time I'm going to insist he mic my newly acquired SVT-CL and 808he cabinet so I can get some mids in the mix. Hopefully this will work. Nothing more frustrating than watching a bassist playing notes above the 5th fret and not hearing it....particularly when the bassist is me.

So, as follow-up to my post, I had absolutely no problem fitting in the mix with the amp mic'd - both on stage and thru the mains. The sound was so much more controllable and audible when I controlled the mids through the amp (and bass). Yes, it could be argued that with better communication with the sound guy , this could be achieved thru a Di. However, you're not gonna get an SVT sound thru a DI in my opinion.

 

[P-oddz]

I bring my own mic and stand (actually, z bar mic holder) and talk to the sound guy before set up. I ask him what he plans on doing for DI/Mic and suggest that I have a nice mic (Heil PR40) and all he has to do is hand me a line and I'll set it up. The majority of times, the sound guys will see that our band is bringing nice gear and that I'm equipped with a much nicer mic than they may have available, and trust that I've put some consideration into tone before. I know from recording with that specific mic, and practicing with the band where my tone should sit, and the proper mic placement to try and capture that. If they prefer their own mic, I let them set it up. If they prefer DI, I'll go that route. I don't cause any static and all my interactions with sound guys are based on a mutual trust that each of us know what the hell we're doing.

I run into the (bonus) problem that my AD200 is not equipped with a line out though, so I usually end up stumping sound guys into going my route.

 

[ddhm]

The answer is simple:
If your "sound" comes from your fingers and bass, use the D.I.
If your "sound" comes largely from your amp, use a mic.

There are certainly other factors that can be at play here. What if it's an ampless band with all IEMs? DI it is, right? Probably. Too much bleed from keys into the bass mic? DI it is. You were mixing Booker T and the MGs? Duck Dunn's ampeg? Oh, A mic is going on that... bet your @$$. You get the idea.

People have lots of opinions as to what "good" audio engineers should do. I'm told that I qualify as one of those. What I do depends largely on what I see and hear. I almost always start with a DI. That's one less mic on deck. I'll go and switch the DI (if it's on the head) to pre EQ. The bassist's EQ choices are quite possibly not what I need at FoH. Since I have an EQ of my own, I'm not worried about his/hers. If it's a free standing DI, I'll take my DI after any effects.
If the amp is making the sounds I like for the particular mix, I'll add the mic and use whatever holds up better in the context of the mix. Rarely is it both.

 

[Ulf_Hansson]

I try to do my job, playing the bass, and I feel confident the sound guy will do his. I don't get to pick the drummer's cymbals (even though I wish I could sometimes...) or the soundpatches for the key rig. We have to trust each other, that we will all do our best for the music we perform, and this include the sound and lights folks! If I get a mic, fine. A DI box? Fine. An XLR for the back of my preamp? Fine. Trust.

Cant't trust the sound guy? Then maybe you should find another gig.

If I (God forbid) would do a solo bass tour I might reconsider this position.