To scoop or to mids? That is the question.

[SC Bassboy]

Keep in mind that most basses/amps have a set frequency that the mid knob adjusts, and the med frequency spectrum seems to cover more ground than we typically realize. Chances are you just haven't found the right mid frequency to cut/boost. So, maybe there is a mid frequency that you can cut that will give you the desired mid-scoop sound but still have plenty of definition. Some on-board preamps let you select between different midrange EQ points (400/800). It might be worth the investment to add a piece of gear into your signal chain that either has a sweepable midrange or a graphic equalizer. I find that I like to bump the mids 4db around 700hz, for instance.

 

[IanStephenson]

At bedroom levels, 60db mids sound as loud as 95db 40Hz, while at gig levels 100db mids sound as loud as 115dB (or less if you use the older FM/blue curves). So at bedroom levels mids seem massively boosted, and so a mid cut balances the sound. At gig volumes there is still a boost but that natural mid boost is much diminished (20dB less), so that mid cut you dialled in at home is now wiping out essential frequencies.

This is why cheap hifi systems used to have a "loudness" button - boost the lows and highs to match the EQ you would get by playing the music louder. It's also why FX units used to have demo presets with a mid cut built in - sounds good in the shop and at home, but then you get to a loud rehearsal and you disappear.

Basically a mid cut sounds great at home but doesn't work at a gig.

 

[4Mal]

Personally, I cut a bit of 250 and surrounding on the EQ of my PA. Everything is in the PA including bass. For my bass I use a slight tilt favoring the low end. Which bass I'm playing plays in as well though. I'm usimg either an HX Stomp or Helix floor. Each bass I play live has it's own patch or patches and EQ is a part of that.

What is indispensible is my wireless. Getting just 20 or 30 feet out front is hugely instructive. If you aren't doing that, you are missing the boat - Unless you have a really with it sound guy out front. In that case it's his thing to worry about

 

[bassartist]

Unfortunately, you'll have to find some middle ground between the sound you like and the sound that works live. Keep in mind two things:
- The sound that you hear on stage and the sound that the audience hears up front (when running a PA system, of course) doesn't have to be the same - more mids may be desirable for your monitoring while a more scooped sound might still work in the mix.
- When dialing in a sound with mids, it might sound a bit honky when playing solo. It does not, however, sound honky when you add the other instruments. Your bass may still sound deep and warm in the mix, but with more note definition.

While slapping you can generally get away with more scooped mids, because the attack makes the bass come through anyway.

Thanks. I have found this to be very true.

 

[bassartist]

I scoop the mids and have always had. But watch out, this can lead to some issues as you might also get lost in the mix.
So scoop accordingly.

My point exactly.

 

[Swamp_Ronin]

Problem is it's not just the bass EQ that makes a mix. It's all the other instruments, what octaves they're playing in, and what freq bands they're present in.

Bumping the mids will only help be heard if there's space in the mids for the bass. If everyone has their mids boosted, or everyone's crowding the midrange, boosting the mids won't help. When everyone's in the mids you get that "it's too loud and i can't hear anything" situation.

This is why Marcus cuts even though he's scooped. The instrumentation, arrangement, and composition are thought about ahead of time and every instrument has its little bit of sonic space, and the space left for the bass is in the lows and highs. And the keys don't step on the low notes too much, etc. There's room for it in his mix. Similarly, reggae bass has very little mids or highs, but nobody complains about not hearing the bass in reggae. It has a home in the low end and there's space for it. Conversely, in a lot of rock, the overdriven or distorted guitars are big & scooped, and the kick is big in the lows, so there's space in the mids for the bass. It just a matter of finding space for each instrument.

-----

Part of the solution is other players playing their instrument in the right octave to blend well with the other instruments. Part of the solution is all the other musicians using a mix-tone instead of a bedroom-tone, leaving space for the other instruments. Unfortunately that involves other people changing what they're playing and how their EQ is set up, which a lot of musicians don't take kindly to, no matter how necessary.

Until everyone else adjusts to the situation, all you can do is adjust your own situation.
First, if you're playing through an amp, make sure it's pointing directly at your ears. You might not be able to hear yourself, but the mix might be fine out in the FOH.

Then it's just a matter of finding what frequency band has space for the bass and boost that, and maybe pull back on some of the other frequency bands that are cluttered. It might not be your preferred personal tone, but none of that tone matters if it doesn't work in a mix and nobody can hear the bass. Without hearing the mix ourselves, we can't say what band to boost. Might be the low-mids, might be the high-mids. Might be somewhere in between or somewhere else. You just gotta find it. (And hopefully there's actually space to find. If everyone else is stepping on everyone else's tone, then it's a job for the BL and Mix Engineer to sort out and tell people what to change.)

Such a good answer.

I've seen Marcus a handful of times. A good bit of his time with the band, he's playing standard bass. It sounds good. He does a good bit of palm muted thumb plucking, which I think is more kid forward.

I bet he would adjust his tone if he were playing between two loud guitarists, god forbid that ever happen though

 

[Tim Skaggs]

As much as I love a scooped mids tone, I find that it doesn't cut through a live mix.

You apparently like scooped mids in specific circumstances, but not in an ensemble. There's no advice I can give that hasn't already been given, you just have to take the advice and dial in a tone that works in circumstances where your current tone doesn't work.

There might be a need to adjust "other things" along with you adjusting your tone, but the scooped tone you love isn't feasible if you, the audience, and your bandmates can't hear you.

Finding the right tone might not be easy, but trying to find it essential.

You'll be surprised how much you like non-scooped mids tone when you and others can hear what you are playing.

 

[thebandcircle]

I find that certain notes sound great scooped yet other notes can disappear. On the other end, boosting mids can make certain areas of the fretboard sound great while making others sound honky or even sustain into feedback while using overdrive and fuzz etc. It really is a balancing act and there is no one simple solution. I've also found that using both pickups works in less dense mixes because of the slightly scooped character, but as the mix gets thicker you need to switch to one pickup. Also, as I increase in volume I must scoop something, somewhere for the sake of everyones ears. Ryan...

 

[bassartist]

Why would this be any different in a gospel/praise setting as compared to any other gig?

Because as a gospel player, (mainly black gospel artists) I look and listen to a lot of gospel bass players and many solo or, favor their rear pickup which contributes to the mids popping out. Slap is not as prevalent as it was in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's in gospel. A lot of fingerstyle with the rear pickup is very popular now in the genre.

 

[shoulderpet]

I find that certain notes sound great scooped yet other notes can disappear. On the other end, boosting mids can make certain areas of the fretboard sound great while making others sound honky or even sustain into feedback while using overdrive and fuzz etc. It really is a balancing act and there is no one simple solution. I've also found that using both pickups works in less dense mixes because of the slightly scooped character, but as the mix gets thicker you need to switch to one pickup. Also, as I increase in volume I must scoop something, somewhere for the sake of everyones ears. Ryan...

You only get the the mid scoop from using both pickups if you run both pickups at the same volume, if you favour one of the pickups over the other then the scoop goes.

 

[shoulderpet]

A scooped tone may work in some situations but generally you should boost mids or if you cut any mid frequencies you should boost other mid frequencies so you do not become scooped overall. My personal settings are a slight cut at around 250hz which makes the lows sound tighter and cleans up mud in that frequency range, and then a generous boost in the high mid frequencies.

 

[bassartist]

Problem is it's not just the bass EQ that makes a mix. It's all the other instruments, what octaves they're playing in, and what freq bands they're present in.

Bumping the mids will only help be heard if there's space in the mids for the bass. If everyone has their mids boosted, or everyone's crowding the midrange, boosting the mids won't help. When everyone's in the mids you get that "it's too loud and i can't hear anything" situation.

This is why Marcus cuts even though he's scooped. The instrumentation, arrangement, and composition are thought about ahead of time and every instrument has its little bit of sonic space, and the space left for the bass is in the lows and highs. And the keys don't step on the low notes too much, etc. There's room for it in his mix. Similarly, reggae bass has very little mids or highs, but nobody complains about not hearing the bass in reggae. It has a home in the low end and there's space for it. Conversely, in a lot of rock, the overdriven or distorted guitars are big & scooped, and the kick is big in the lows, so there's space in the mids for the bass. It just a matter of finding space for each instrument.

-----

Part of the solution is other players playing their instrument in the right octave to blend well with the other instruments. Part of the solution is all the other musicians using a mix-tone instead of a bedroom-tone, leaving space for the other instruments. Unfortunately that involves other people changing what they're playing and how their EQ is set up, which a lot of musicians don't take kindly to, no matter how necessary.

Until everyone else adjusts to the situation, all you can do is adjust your own situation.
First, if you're playing through an amp, make sure it's pointing directly at your ears. You might not be able to hear yourself, but the mix might be fine out in the FOH.

Then it's just a matter of finding what frequency band has space for the bass and boost that, and maybe pull back on some of the other frequency bands that are cluttered. It might not be your preferred personal tone, but none of that tone matters if it doesn't work in a mix and nobody can hear the bass. Without hearing the mix ourselves, we can't say what band to boost. Might be the low-mids, might be the high-mids. Might be somewhere in between or somewhere else. You just gotta find it. (And hopefully there's actually space to find. If everyone else is stepping on everyone else's tone, then it's a job for the BL and Mix Engineer to sort out and tell people what to change.)

You nailed my issue. I play with three keyboards. Baby Grand, Synth, and Hammond Organ. Most of the time all three are going simultaneously! Also, drums and guitar so the mid range frequency is very crowded. I try to tell the keys players to lay off the bass notes some. Lately I have begun to cut my bass because of the room and the two large subs in the PA, and that seems to have cleared up some of the muddiness.

 

[bassartist]

Keep in mind that most basses/amps have a set frequency that the mid knob adjusts, and the med frequency spectrum seems to cover more ground than we typically realize. Chances are you just haven't found the right mid frequency to cut/boost. So, maybe there is a mid frequency that you can cut that will give you the desired mid-scoop sound but still have plenty of definition. Some on-board preamps let you select between different midrange EQ points (400/800). It might be worth the investment to add a piece of gear into your signal chain that either has a sweepable midrange or a graphic equalizer. I find that I like to bump the mids 4db around 700hz, for instance.

Great idea. I have a tonehammer pedal that has a sweepable midrange. I may take it to see what happens. All of my basses are active, so I can easily EQ from them, but like you said, just have to find that sweet spot/frequency.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Happy New Year fellow bassists! For all my Gospel players out there, I have a question. As much as I love a scooped mids tone, I find that it doesn't cut through a live mix. So I want to know how do you set up your tone to cut through, if you too, like a scooped EQ? I like the sound of my bass with both pickups on, mids slightly scooped. Depending on the room, I may cut or add bass and treble. Looking at a lot of players on social media, I see a lot of players favoring the rear pickup, and it really cuts through so much better. For fingerstyle, I can get with this. But if I'm slapping, I dig the scooped tone more, although if I do runs, they are not cutting through as much in this position. I have basses that have mid controls and some that only have bass and treble. On the other hand, I look at Marcus Miller, who also plays with a scooped tone, and he cuts through like no other.

One of the reasons I don't like basses with a two-band EQ is that there's no control over the mids, at least in the way that there is control over the bass and treble. So... Some songs require more mids, and some do not. I'm quite attuned to that detail. I may never touch the bass or treble controls beyond a soundcheck and minor alterations for the room (during soundcheck and then when full). But the mids? I'm very often adjusting those. Sometimes song by song. Music of ALL kinds... and it goes WAY beyond and also includes gospel btw... needs differing quantities of electric/electrified bass mids. It would seem to me that if tonal consistency for EVERY song is the point, then finding how much mids you can tolerate and tolerate being without will be the highly-personal and unique-to-you process unique to your acoustic and otherwise environment that you should engage in. If the idea is the right TONE for every song (and I'm presuming every song of any genre, including gospel, is NOT supposed to sound the same or sound the very best with EXACTLY the same tone ALL the time), then a mindset and intention to use the great flexible tonal shaping of the active EQ instrument is not a matter of weakness, inexperience or indecision, but merely making the best judgements of the right tone for each song. As a professional, I always stand by option number two for live gigging situations.

Regarding Marcus Miller. He is a bass superstar in the bass world. What you hear, beyond his tone/tonal choices is the intention of others (soundpeople, recording engineers) to MAKE SURE he is heard. Take confidence that being heard... even with scooped mids and even if your name isn't Marcus Miller, CAN be done. AND... on some level, making sure you're heard (whether or not "cutting through the mix") is NOT your sole responsibility or capability even if you want it to be in big situations with FOH and big productions. The soundpeople have a job to do. Let them do it. Or at least give them a chance.

If you can't hear your amp well enough for you, that is somewhat of a different issue and approach, of which is addressed in many other threads.

I hope this helps.

PS: Should it ALWAYS be about "cutting though the mix"? And why or why not? Is there any time where the idea should be to "blend into the mix"? A few philosophical musings there, perhaps...

 

[bassdude51]

When I'm "noodling" around by myself here in the house, I love the sound of scooped on my P Bass.

But, when playing live with a band, gotta have mids! Otherwise, the bass will not be heard very well.

 

[pepj]

TL DR.
No to adding mids unless thatcis what you hear and play to.
Better to have a band mix where everyone knows where to position the bass.
The most I do to cut a bit more or add character is adjust tone control.
But really, you should record a typical mix and work from there
You'll hear whether the bass actually works in context and then set up your backline/monitor to that...but as for changing basic tone..then no. Its a deeper problem if you have to resort to that.

 

[bassartist]

One of the reasons I don't like basses with a two-band EQ is that there's no control over the mids, at least in the way that there is control over the bass and treble. So... Some songs require more mids, and some do not. I'm quite attuned to that detail. I may never touch the bass or treble controls beyond a soundcheck and minor alterations for the room (during soundcheck and then when full). But the mids? I'm very often adjusting those. Sometimes song by song. Music of ALL kinds... and it goes WAY beyond and also includes gospel btw... needs differing quantities of electric/electrified bass mids. It would seem to me that if tonal consistency for EVERY song is the point, then finding how much mids you can tolerate and tolerate being without will be the highly-personal and unique-to-you process unique to your acoustic and otherwise environment that you should engage in. If the idea is the right TONE for every song (and I'm presuming every song of any genre, including gospel, is NOT supposed to sound the same or sound the very best with EXACTLY the same tone ALL the time), then a mindset and intention to use the great flexible tonal shaping of the active EQ instrument is not a matter of weakness, inexperience or indecision, but merely making the best judgements of the right tone for each song. As a professional, I always stand by option number two for live gigging situations.

Regarding Marcus Miller. He is a bass superstar in the bass world. What you hear, beyond his tone/tonal choices is the intention of others (soundpeople, recording engineers) to MAKE SURE he is heard. Take confidence that being heard... even with scooped mids and even if your name isn't Marcus Miller, CAN be done. AND... on some level, making sure you're heard (whether or not "cutting through the mix") is NOT your sole responsibility or capability even if you want it to be in big situations with FOH and big productions. The soundpeople have a job to do. Let them do it. Or at least give them a chance.

If you can't hear your amp well enough for you, that is somewhat of a different issue and approach, of which is addressed in many other threads.

I hope this helps.

PS: Should it ALWAYS be about "cutting though the mix"? And why or why not? Is there any time where the idea should be to "blend into the mix"? A few philosophical musings there, perhaps...

Thanks. I agree. I should note, though, that in our church setting, we have volunteers running sound who are not professional audio engineers. I'm the most experienced, but I'm playing two to three times a month and have to depend on them for FOH. I can get a decent mix in my ears, but the FOH and live stream are what I'm most concerned about.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Thanks. I agree. I should note, though, that in our church setting, we have volunteers running sound who are not professional audio engineers. I'm the most experienced, but I'm playing two to three times a month and have to depend on them for FOH. I can get a decent mix in my ears, but the FOH and live stream are what I'm most concerned about.

In that case, I'd recommend, even as a one-off temporary measure, even a borrow from a friend, a wireless. Go listen to the room with the wireless. Just once. You might be surprised what you hear that everyone else is hearing. Or maybe you won't and can make some adjustments there. Good luck.

 

[eniac]

Bassartist is in a tough situation because the entire frequency spectrum is already covered by the other players. I think this is one reason Steve Harris uses such a scooped-out tone -- to stay at the edges of the entire spectrum. That's all that's "available", so to speak.

I saw a fairly recent Youtube video of an AC/DC concert where the bass player was using a Precision. Maybe he was subbing for Cliff -- I don't know. Anyway, I could actually hear the bass guitar because, unlike Cliff's typical SR, it was working in a relatively unpopulated spectrum. IMO it was a huge improvement.

 

[tshapiro]

I too love the Marcus Miller sound and for my bands setlist I'm regularly changing between finger style and slap. I use Jazz basses with full volume on both pickups and tone turned full up by default. Amps are set boosted lows and highs. If it's a quick slap fill I just leave things as they are. If it's a whole slap song I turn down the tone knob by about 20%. Coincidentally, Flea, whose tone I also like, will often tape his tone knob at about 20% reduced as well. I turn the tone knob down a touch to smooth out the high end when slapping which allows me to dig in a little harder without it sounding harsh.