Tobias ... No wait, MTD ... GIBSON ... HUH?

[Bass Viking]

Iotanet:

Thanks. Maybe that post was a bit long and detailed, so I should summarize:
1) Tobias basses are the best money can buy in woods, necks, tuners, bridges, pickups eletronics, craftsmanship, etc. NO corners were cut.
2) You the bassist have few choices in Tobias basses - there are a few different body woods, and that's it. You like it or you don't.
3) You WILL pay an arm and a leg for these basses, just like you do any other handcrafted basses (including Carvin). They aren't "industry standard" either - they have unique necks and custom electronics. They're SUPER; they aren't bargains.
4) After a LOT of shopping for my next bass, which included a lot of basses by famous luthiers, I found Tobias-by-Gibson, 2005 or later, to be the best bang for the buck availabe, period. But I also admit I found the Killer B at $2K superior to the Signarute at $5K, price no object. The $2K Killer B had better tone (richness and fullness), and better sustain (despite the Signature's neck-through), in my judgment. Looked better too (but no accounting for taste, right?)

So here's the bottom line: The (new, Arkansas-made) Gibson Tobias bass is one hell of an instrument. It costs a LOT. It's worth it. It may not be for you. By all means, TRY ONE OUT before making a decision. You'll be glad you did.

I have to ask:

For the same money, why not just buy an MTD built by Michael Tobias himself and not have to worry about Gibson's uneven quality and reputation?

 

[Debased]

If you find anything that looks like either of these, jump on them:

Thought you might like to see a Tobias catalog page from that period. Sorry about the condition.

 

[Basboeg]

What you don't get is... no one asked you. It wasn't a request for a critique from you but hey, knock yourself out.

This is a forum. If you post something, expect some critique.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Thought you might like to see a Tobias catalog page from that period. Sorry about the condition.

Those are fugly. Just so you know.

 

[Brad Johnson]

This is a forum. If you post something, expect some critique.

It was hardly unexpected. As the old joke goes, everybody has one.

 

[johnpaulbass]

I have to ask:

For the same money, why not just buy an MTD built by Michael Tobias himself and not have to worry about Gibson's uneven quality and reputation?

+1 ... I own one.. and you can't go wrong with it (mine is 1997) build by Michael (and he's really one of the nicest persons on the planet!)

 

[Flintc]

For the same money, why not just buy an MTD built by Michael Tobias himself and not have to worry about Gibson's uneven quality and reputation?

This is probably a good idea but...I'm (maybe understandably) leery of buying an instrument I haven't played. I think the reports about Gibson maybe skewed my perceptions, but I have also read some very disappointed reactions by purchasers of known luthiers of good reputation.

At least with someone like Carvin, you have the option of sending it right back and paying nothing (except shipping?). I don't know if MTD provides that option. I do know that based on some problems of, uh, uneven quality at Gibson, I'd probably have a hard time selling what I bought for what it's really worth.

Maybe next time, I'll take the quality of the reputation into account as well as the quality of the particular instrument itself. But in the meantime, the best answer to this question is, I got AT LEAST what I paid for, and that's really my goal here.

If you found one for a reasonable price, whether you thought they were fugly or not, it would be fairly dumb to pass up.

If the goal is to flip the bass for a quick profit, I'm sure this is the smart thing to do. But much of the price surely lies in the historical value of these instruments, rather than entirely in the musical quality. I have no problem with paying collector's item prices for true collector's items, but I still recognize that the purchase (collecting or flipping it to a collector) is somewhat different from straight playing.

 

[Brad Johnson]

This is probably a good idea but...I'm (maybe understandably) leery of buying an instrument I haven't played. I think the reports about Gibson maybe skewed my perceptions, but I have also read some very disappointed reactions by purchasers of known luthiers of good reputation.

Those are very rare IME. Reputable builders tend to be reputable, especially the busy ones. Unless you're commissioning an oddball custom, most allow for your satisfaction. I'd have no qualms about buying such a bass from a reputable dealer.

As far as why not buy an MTD if you want a Tobias, there's the most obvious reason... they're different instruments. They both do what they do and I don't see much of an overlap if any.

At least with someone like Carvin, you have the option of sending it right back and paying nothing (except shipping?). I don't know if MTD provides that option. I do know that based on some problems of, uh, uneven quality at Gibson, I'd probably have a hard time selling what I bought for what it's really worth.

You'd have a hard time selling it based solely on what Gibson has done in recent years. It's still an uphill climb and a gamble from a resale POV.

I don't know what Mike's current policy is but you could certainly find out through a dealer.

Maybe next time, I'll take the quality of the reputation into account as well as the quality of the particular instrument itself. But in the meantime, the best answer to this question is, I got AT LEAST what I paid for, and that's really my goal here.

That's important.

If the goal is to flip the bass for a quick profit, I'm sure this is the smart thing to do. But much of the price surely lies in the historical value of these instruments, rather than entirely in the musical quality. I have no problem with paying collector's item prices for true collector's items, but I still recognize that the purchase (collecting or flipping it to a collector) is somewhat different from straight playing.

I don't recall any quality issues with the early Tobiases.

Value is value. If you find a 66 Jazz for a good price, it makes no difference whether you plan on selling it immediately or hang on to it for a while. Or even *gasp* play it . Both of my original Tobiases are most definitely players.

 

[Ian Perge]

I have to ask:

For the same money, why not just buy an MTD built by Michael Tobias himself and not have to worry about Gibson's uneven quality and reputation?

I can say, as an example posted by others, that I simply prefer the old-school Tobias shape and tighter string-spacing. Absolutely no disrespect to Mike T, who helped me through e-mail with some defreting questions, but as I stated a well-build Killer-B is pretty close to my "dream" bass, at least of my youth.

 

[dion mauer]

Reputable builders tend to be reputable, especially the busy ones. Unless you're commissioning an oddball custom, most allow for your satisfaction. I'd have no qualms about buying such a bass from a reputable dealer.

how about a nice custom bebensee?

 

[Brad Johnson]

how about a nice custom bebensee?

Too easy.

 

[Flintc]

Brad:

Those are very rare IME. Reputable builders tend to be reputable, especially the busy ones. Unless you're commissioning an oddball custom, most allow for your satisfaction. I'd have no qualms about buying such a bass from a reputable dealer.

But as you point out, this is only part of the story. An instrument guaranteed to be of unimpeachably perfect physical quality, even built according to my specifications, may be both flawless, and not quite the overall sound and feel I was after.

This leads to an interesting discussion, I think. I'm not opposed to trying out a given bass in person, then mail-ordering the exact same make and model and I'd expect to get something pretty much indistinguishable from what I checked out. But with a custom-built one-off, I'm still going to be nervous; it's still buy before you try.

As far as why not buy an MTD if you want a Tobias, there's the most obvious reason... they're different instruments. They both do what they do and I don't see much of an overlap if any.

Yes, exactly so. In fact, I played Killer Bs of different body woods (but same amp, cable, etc.) and heard real differences. Again, after careful listening (and the due diligence of very close inspection, given Gibson's reputed track record), I felt very fuzzy and comfortable about saying "THIS is my dream bass" and walking out with it. After somewhere over 100 hours of playing time on it now, I can say I am no less satisfied.

You'd have a hard time selling it based solely on what Gibson has done in recent years. It's still an uphill climb and a gamble from a resale POV.

I'm afraid you're right. It would basically have to sell itself in person, and not by reputation name value.

Value is value. If you find a 66 Jazz for a good price, it makes no difference whether you plan on selling it immediately or hang on to it for a while. Or even *gasp* play it . Both of my original Tobiases are most definitely players.

Well, not quite what I was driving at. I had assumed (maybe wrongly) that the basses in question were special in some way - the very first, the very last, etc. And that these conditions would add to the price over and above (say) the tenth (or tenth-last), i.e. one of that line but not a special one.

Ian:

Well, the hot-off-the-presses Killer B 5-strings have 19mm spacing at the bridge, which is fairly wide.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Well, not quite what I was driving at. I had assumed (maybe wrongly) that the basses in question were special in some way - the very first, the very last, etc. And that these conditions would add to the price over and above (say) the tenth (or tenth-last), i.e. one of that line but not a special one.

Much like early Fenders, early Tobiases value doesn't hinge on being the first or last, though I'd guess #177 (or whatever Mike numbered that first one) is probably more valuable than the others of the same period.

I have no idea how much mine are worth.

 

[vision]

Flintc, I'm sorry that I'm just now seeing your response to my post. I have personally played 5 of the new Arkansas Gibson Tobias basses. I have always loved Tobias basses, since even before I started playing bass. I really liked the Nashville Gibson basses made during the 90's. I was disappointed when they stopped production - the overwhelming majority of them were great basses. I was happy when I heard that they were resuming production with the new Arkansas basses, and I REALLY wanted to like them. I have played 5 of these new basses. So my comments were not based on rumor or word of mouth.

I personally defy anyone to find a Tobias bass built within the last couple of years with any quality issues at all.

I've played 2 of the Signitures, including a custom signiture that they made for the 2004 NAMM show, 2 of the Classics, and one of the new Growlers. Once again, I REALLY wanted to like these basses. But I didn't. The build quality was very poor...for example when running my fingers over the neck I could feel variences in the wood laminations. It would be smooth at some parts of the neck, but with a hard seam at other parts. Also, the fretwork was uneven - some of the crowns weren't finished uniformly.

But clearly, they are battling uninformed word-of-mouth. I can only say, try one out. Get a magnifying glass and examine the workmanship. Listen to the sound. Feel the neck. Check out the hardware.

Been there, done that. If it was just one bass I would understand. But 5 basses? and all had the exact same issues? It can't just be me.

 

[Flintc]

vision:

I admit I'm baffled by this variation in experiences. Maybe (I'm just plain guessing here) it has something to do with screening by the dealers?

The nature of the problems you and Ian have noticed also bugs me. I wonder how easy to introduce most of these problems just through sloppy workmanship - after all, even the most meticulous luthiers don't carve their necks or bodies with whittling knives, they machine-cut the laminations. I wonder how one goes about "not noticing" that the frets aren't trimmed at the edge of the fingerboard. I wonder how one even finds variable-finish fretting wire.

I'm not a luthier at all, so these things puzzle me. Screws left off? Bridges misplaced? Hard seams not finished off? Wings misglued to the body? We seem to have to entirely separate categories of problem being described here:

1) Entire steps in the production were omitted. Fretting steps, sanding steps, finishing steps, inspection steps, etc. This implies an end-to-end process over which control is either absent or serious misdirected.

2) Management issues are bogglingly serious. Why wouldn't customers (stores as well as bassists) not just return such junk, with VERY angry comments? Why wouldn't Gibson notice these returns? Why would anyone ever even take shipment of more of these? Doesn't Gibson have someone at the very least doing "every-nth-item" sampling of shipping product, and noticing such flagrant errors? Wouldn't someone involved in a subsequent manufacturing step NOTICE that the prior step was skipped or bungled, and report the issue? My manufacturing experience (about 15 years of close but indirect association now) is that someone at Gibson would have to WANT to ship junk, deliberately. It doesn't make sense.

Meanwhile, I've been looking at these instruments at the 4 stores I've visited that sold them, and I haven't seen these problems. I've examined my own new Tobias with a magnifying glass, and cannot find anything that would indicate any process problems. And more: The two sections of the bubinga body are so well-fitted and matched that I cannot find ANY seam between them even with a magnifying glass. No break in the grain, color, pattern, etc. If you didn't look at the bottom edge (by the strap pin), you'd swear it was one integral block of wood. A machine can't do that. And the frets are all perfect; there are no buzzes, no dead spots, no variations in finish, etc.

Which says that Gibson CAN do a fantastic job of making one of these things. And they have, where I've looked. Which gets me back to dealer screening. Maybe some dealers do the same thing I did, and kicked back anything not deserving of the (very) high price Gibson demands. Maybe Gibson shunts these returns over to the dealers YOU visited, without addressing their process problems. But this is all guessing.

Meanwhile, the CEO is on record that Gibson is (at least as of last April, the date of the interview I saw) inspecting every Tobias bass in detail, and anything less than perfect is being rejected at the factory. Meanwhile, for what it's worth, their corporate PR department says "We at Tobias...painstakingly hand craft our instruments with only the finest materials while paying meticulous attention to detail." Those I've seen in fact live up to this puffery.

Meanwhile, I'm thinking of maybe someday soon trying a 6-string. My first choice would be Tobias, because the 5-string I have earns it. But from what you and others say, I'd be advised to examine in some detail any Tobias bass I'd consider buying. All I can tell you is that there ARE good ones out there, and those are very good indeed, worth Gibson's prices.

Well, Conway Arkansas is only about a day's drive from me. Maybe I should pay a visit to the factory.

 

[seebee]

Here's a pic of my Tobias Classic #1875 I bought brand new around 1991. The quality of construction is very good but the pre amp was always a tad noisy. Never had the pre fixed or replaced. It has a Bartolini TCT. I've never tried a Nashville Tobias because most of my Bass buddies didn't like them. It came Vol/Vol/Bass/Mid/Treb but I changed it to Vol/Pan.

 

[Brad Johnson]

vision:

I admit I'm baffled by this variation in experiences. Maybe (I'm just plain guessing here) it has something to do with screening by the dealers?

The nature of the problems you and Ian have noticed also bugs me. I wonder how easy to introduce most of these problems just through sloppy workmanship - after all, even the most meticulous luthiers don't carve their necks or bodies with whittling knives, they machine-cut the laminations. I wonder how one goes about "not noticing" that the frets aren't trimmed at the edge of the fingerboard. I wonder how one even finds variable-finish fretting wire.

Finding less than optimal fretwork isn't really a mystery, is it?

I'm not a luthier at all, so these things puzzle me. Screws left off? Bridges misplaced? Hard seams not finished off? Wings misglued to the body? We seem to have to entirely separate categories of problem being described here:

1) Entire steps in the production were omitted. Fretting steps, sanding steps, finishing steps, inspection steps, etc. This implies an end-to-end process over which control is either absent or serious misdirected.

2) Management issues are bogglingly serious. Why wouldn't customers (stores as well as bassists) not just return such junk, with VERY angry comments? Why wouldn't Gibson notice these returns? Why would anyone ever even take shipment of more of these? Doesn't Gibson have someone at the very least doing "every-nth-item" sampling of shipping product, and noticing such flagrant errors? Wouldn't someone involved in a subsequent manufacturing step NOTICE that the prior step was skipped or bungled, and report the issue? My manufacturing experience (about 15 years of close but indirect association now) is that someone at Gibson would have to WANT to ship junk, deliberately. It doesn't make sense.

So what is your close, indirect association with Gibson?

Meanwhile, I've been looking at these instruments at the 4 stores I've visited that sold them, and I haven't seen these problems. I've examined my own new Tobias with a magnifying glass, and cannot find anything that would indicate any process problems. And more: The two sections of the bubinga body are so well-fitted and matched that I cannot find ANY seam between them even with a magnifying glass. No break in the grain, color, pattern, etc. If you didn't look at the bottom edge (by the strap pin), you'd swear it was one integral block of wood. A machine can't do that. And the frets are all perfect; there are no buzzes, no dead spots, no variations in finish, etc.

Which says that Gibson CAN do a fantastic job of making one of these things. And they have, where I've looked. Which gets me back to dealer screening. Maybe some dealers do the same thing I did, and kicked back anything not deserving of the (very) high price Gibson demands. Maybe Gibson shunts these returns over to the dealers YOU visited, without addressing their process problems. But this is all guessing.

Some people buy items with no concern for resale value. In that case whatever price is charged is inconsequential to them. Then there are others who base their value perception not only on immediate gratification but also value down the road. So far what Gibson has proven down the road is a major deterrent for many folks.

Meanwhile, the CEO is on record that Gibson is (at least as of last April, the date of the interview I saw) inspecting every Tobias bass in detail, and anything less than perfect is being rejected at the factory. Meanwhile, for what it's worth, their corporate PR department says "We at Tobias...painstakingly hand craft our instruments with only the finest materials while paying meticulous attention to detail." Those I've seen in fact live up to this puffery.

Anyone CAN do a fantastic job.

Would you expect anything else from a corproate PR department trying to sell instruments in the highest price range?

I wouldn't. That doesn't make it true. It's selling 101.

Ever read any of Ken Lay's statements?

Meanwhile, I'm thinking of maybe someday soon trying a 6-string. My first choice would be Tobias, because the 5-string I have earns it. But from what you and others say, I'd be advised to examine in some detail any Tobias bass I'd consider buying. All I can tell you is that there ARE good ones out there, and those are very good indeed, worth Gibson's prices.

Well, Conway Arkansas is only about a day's drive from me. Maybe I should pay a visit to the factory.

Good luck. Unfortunately not many are willing to drive a day to make sure they get a "good one".

 

[Flintc]

Brad:

Finding less than optimal fretwork isn't really a mystery, is it?

I don't know. My uninformed guess would be that this process is fairly standardized.

So what is your close, indirect association with Gibson?

I don't have any association with Gibson. I have experience with manufacturing processes, and management of those processes. Enough to tell you that if Gibson is shipping lousy instruments, this is a management decision, and NOT a matter of unqualified workers at the plant.

So far what Gibson has proven down the road is a major deterrent for many folks.

I can understand this. I have no intention of reselling anything, and I almost surely wouldn't have purchased this instrument otherwise. I notice just from reading these threads that once a bad reputation is earned, it's damn difficult to recover. Gibson put themselves behind the 8-ball, and now they're wrong whatever they do.

Anyone CAN do a fantastic job. Would you expect anything else from a corproate PR department trying to sell instruments in the highest price range? I wouldn't. That doesn't make it true. It's selling 101. Ever read any of Ken Lay's statements?

I hope you understand, that's why I said "for what it's worth" (i.e. not much) and why I called it "puffery". What we have here is a confusing situation: I've seen a limited number of Tobias basses (a couple dozen at the very most), examined maybe half a dozen of them in detail, and have yet to see anything of less than excellent quality. And of course, it is this experience, that lends credence to the sales schpiel. In addition to my personal experience that if you charge $2000 for quality worse than one would expect for $200, your sales will be zero. As far as I can determine, Gibson is selling these things as fast as they can ship them. And from reviews on the net, those who buy them (as opposed to those who bad-mouth them) are delighted, and can find no problems. Maybe us suckers who swallow the puffery are just stupid? But the instrument I purchased is IMO worth the money.

(As a footnote, puffery has legal restrictions. You're not allowed to misrepresent. For example, you can claim your bass is "the world's best-sounding, easiest-playing bass" and that's OK. But you can NOT claim you use Bartolini pickups if you do not. Most of Gibson's PR material is pure puffery - "we work hard, we take pride, we know you'll be happy, we pay meticulous attention to detail, we use the finest materials", this is all hot air. But saying "we hand-craft our instruments" is specific - they can NOT say this unless they do it.)

Unfortunately not many are willing to drive a day to make sure they get a "good one".

I agree, but this is neither what I said, nor what I implied. The way to be sure you get a good one is to grab hold of it, examine it, play it, compare it with many others. There's no need to drive to the factory to do this diligence; nor will a trip to the factory *substitute* for this diligence.

What I was trying to say (probably poorly) is that I don't understand what seems based on wildly contradictory testimonies to be an incredibly uneven quality in the product.

I seem to find those whose disgust with Gibson is so profound Gibson could ship God's Own Perfection and these folks would reject-without-thinking, and those who have actually purchased these things, and are satisfied and delighted. I don't seem to find any middle ground along the lines of "one of many brands competing in this price range, all of which have their pros and cons, buy what suits you best, probably worth the money if it's to your taste, try it and see."

Instead, I see a lot of attention to the serial number, exactly as though this serial number is the ONLY way anyone here can tell if the bass is wonderful (Mike Tobias was still involved), or abysmal (Tobias had left). And clearly, if this is how most people evaluate the quality of an instrument, my best move if I were to resell mine would be to forge a false serial number so that people would "know" it was a high-quality instrument. Very discouraging.

So a visit to the factory would give me a pretty good idea whether the quality is in fact spotty, and if so why. Even though I have no intention of reselling, and can see no reason why the Tobias I bought shouldn't last indefinitely, I'm still curious about how Gibson does things. I've worked for mass-production companies and for custom one-off companies, and the approach is of course totally different. Either one can produce both great and terrible products, but they do so for entirely different reasons.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch: My experience has been very positive. Try before you buy.

 

[anomalee]

I'd play either of them.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Brad:


I don't know. My uninformed guess would be that this process is fairly standardized.

It is... yet some builder's QC can be found lacking.

I don't have any association with Gibson. I have experience with manufacturing processes, and management of those processes. Enough to tell you that if Gibson is shipping lousy instruments, this is a management decision, and NOT a matter of unqualified workers at the plant.

I doubt anyone would care "where" the fault lies in the event they get something substandard. Gibson obviously did ship substandard instruments in the past. It was just plain dumb long term, even if it was the most expeditious way to unload them.

I was wondering about the "close" part.

I can understand this. I have no intention of reselling anything, and I almost surely wouldn't have purchased this instrument otherwise. I notice just from reading these threads that once a bad reputation is earned, it's damn difficult to recover. Gibson put themselves behind the 8-ball, and now they're wrong whatever they do.

One of the reasons many folks are comfortable spending big bucks on Sadowsky or Fodera is because they know that, should they HAVE to unload them, they at least have a base value and won't have to take a complete bath on them. Some people don't care about that and that definitely works in Gibson's favor.

I hope you understand, that's why I said "for what it's worth" (i.e. not much) and why I called it "puffery". What we have here is a confusing situation: I've seen a limited number of Tobias basses (a couple dozen at the very most), examined maybe half a dozen of them in detail, and have yet to see anything of less than excellent quality. And of course, it is this experience, that lends credence to the sales schpiel. In addition to my personal experience that if you charge $2000 for quality worse than one would expect for $200, your sales will be zero. As far as I can determine, Gibson is selling these things as fast as they can ship them. And from reviews on the net, those who buy them (as opposed to those who bad-mouth them) are delighted, and can find no problems. Maybe us suckers who swallow the puffery are just stupid? But the instrument I purchased is IMO worth the money.

Really? Gibson is moving the new upper end Tobiases like that? I find that surprising. Got any sales/production numbers or is this a guess? I'm pretty sure some of them go for more than $3k and I personally haven't seen one of those.

(As a footnote, puffery has legal restrictions. You're not allowed to misrepresent. For example, you can claim your bass is "the world's best-sounding, easiest-playing bass" and that's OK. But you can NOT claim you use Bartolini pickups if you do not. Most of Gibson's PR material is pure puffery - "we work hard, we take pride, we know you'll be happy, we pay meticulous attention to detail, we use the finest materials", this is all hot air. But saying "we hand-craft our instruments" is specific - they can NOT say this unless they do it.)

As long as people are involved, they're hand-crafted. That's not hard to live up to

I agree, but this is neither what I said, nor what I implied. The way to be sure you get a good one is to grab hold of it, examine it, play it, compare it with many others. There's no need to drive to the factory to do this diligence; nor will a trip to the factory *substitute* for this diligence.

"Meanwhile, I'm thinking of maybe someday soon trying a 6-string. My first choice would be Tobias, because the 5-string I have earns it. But from what you and others say, I'd be advised to examine in some detail any Tobias bass I'd consider buying. All I can tell you is that there ARE good ones out there, and those are very good indeed, worth Gibson's prices.

Well, Conway Arkansas is only about a day's drive from me. Maybe I should pay a visit to the factory".

What have I said about "current" Tobias quality?


You seem to be saying you'd consider a new Tobias six. You then say it's a day's drive from you and maybe you should pay them a visit. I said that that's not an viable option for most people.

What I was trying to say (probably poorly) is that I don't understand what seems based on wildly contradictory testimonies to be an incredibly uneven quality in the product.

Seems pretty simple... some people have seen things that you haven't. No doubt some of this may be anectdotal. maybe people are lying about what they saw at tradeshows and dealers. You've seen a couple dozen out of how many basses?

I seem to find those whose disgust with Gibson is so profound Gibson could ship God's Own Perfection and these folks would reject-without-thinking, and those who have actually purchased these things, and are satisfied and delighted. I don't seem to find any middle ground along the lines of "one of many brands competing in this price range, all of which have their pros and cons, buy what suits you best, probably worth the money if it's to your taste, try it and see."

Only because you're not looking for it. "Probably worth the money..."? Sure, if resale value isn't a part of your value proposition. My participation in this hasn't been "Gibson Tobiases are bad, period". It's been laying out the events that lead to where they are as far as their place in the market. How is that one extreme or the other?

Instead, I see a lot of attention to the serial number, exactly as though this serial number is the ONLY way anyone here can tell if the bass is wonderful (Mike Tobias was still involved), or abysmal (Tobias had left). And clearly, if this is how most people evaluate the quality of an instrument, my best move if I were to resell mine would be to forge a false serial number so that people would "know" it was a high-quality instrument. Very discouraging.

Why? This all about being an informed buyer. Someone who deson't care about resale value most likely doesn't care to be informed either. What difference would it make? Spend the money and be happy.

The reason why people refer to the serial numbers is simple... the overwhelming output from Tobias when Mike was in charge was top shelf stuff. Buying from the period when he was in charge is a safer bet quality-wise. It's a safer better resale-wise. Serial numbers tell people when the bass was made.

So a visit to the factory would give me a pretty good idea whether the quality is in fact spotty, and if so why. Even though I have no intention of reselling, and can see no reason why the Tobias I bought shouldn't last indefinitely, I'm still curious about how Gibson does things. I've worked for mass-production companies and for custom one-off companies, and the approach is of course totally different. Either one can produce both great and terrible products, but they do so for entirely different reasons.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch: My experience has been very positive. Try before you buy.

In this case I agree. OTOH there are brands I'd buy before I try. Rob Elrick's basses for example. I'd have no qualms about buying a new bass from Rob sight unseen. Or Chris Stambaugh. Or Carey Nordstrand or George Furlanetto or JP when he was building... because I know these guys don't screw around when it comes to quality. They're all established alternatives to the new Gibsons. They have a history of not doing that. By the same token, Gibson's own history is biting them. Hard. IME deservedly so. They took one of the highest end marques and turned it into something that merely looked like Tobiases way too often... as if everyone wouldn't get closer to 10' on their basses.

It would only benefit me if Gibson really has gotten their act together... I don't think the clunkers I saw when Gibson QC really kicked in or the MusicYos helped the original Tobiases value at all. I'd like for that stuff to be a distant memory