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Tobias ... No wait, MTD ... GIBSON ... HUH?
- Thread starter IotaNet
- Start date
Brad Johnson said:
I know that Sadowsky has the same philosophy about wood and electric instruments sounding good unplugged. I wonder, does Gibson check the acoustic properties of the wood going into their Tobiases?
When I put together my first Warmoth parts bass, I strung it up and played it before installing the pickups. Sounded great unplugged and sure enough, great through an amp once the Seymour Duncans were added. On the flip side of the coin, I once ordered a Carvin BB75 that I wound up sending back because the tone was good but not great. I could have installed different pickups, like some do on Carvins, but I didn't think the acoustic sound of the bass had the potential to make it an awesome sounding axe (to my ears anyway, this is somewhat subjective).
Brad:
However, let's say Mike took two pieces of wood he found acoustically very different, but which looked alike. Now he builds two basses, with the same pickups and strings, plugged into the same amp with the same settings. Would you be willing to guarantee that you personally would be able to tell the difference consistently? Would you be willing to guarantee that Mike himself could consistently identify them properly under amplification? Or would the acoustical differences in the body blocks be too subtle (I'm sure they would be for me) and/or lost in the influences of the neck, the bolts or glues, the idiosyncrasies of the electronics, the influence of equalization, etc. etc.?
So while testing the acoustical properties of body blocks is an impressive gesture, I'm reminded of the tale of the princess and the pea. Or the story of N-Rays. And I wonder what Mike does with beautiful pieces of wood that sound inferior to him when he raps them with his knuckles or however he does it.
Nonetheless, I will readily admit that some nominally identical guitars sound distinctly different to me. The other day, I had the opportunity to try two Schecter Stiletto Studio 5-string basses back-to-back. Let me put it this way: I'm glad I didn't buy one of them over the net based on how the other one sounded. *Something* is making a difference.
As for looks, I think there are so many choices out there that one ought never to be in the position of having to pick between a good-looking blah-sounding bass, and an exciting-sounding base that can't get past the ugly filter. You can find both looks and sound if you try.
And taste in sound being what it is, I don't see how any kind of QC could reject a bass as bad-sounding. Out of tune, faulty pickups or wiring, sure. But tone quality is really subjective, as much as good looks.
I'm personally convinced that after Mike left, they built for profit margin first. But your comment does disturb me a bit, since "many boutique builders" build to order, and you buy before you try. If they're building for looks first, I better (as you say) listen with my eyes.
I mentioned this because I was getting the impression that at least for a while (with the Korean MusicYo stuff, especially) Gibson was using bargain basement ingredients. I note that they aren't any more. I agree great ingredients alone doesn't guarantee a good instrument. I want to discuss this more in the voodoo comments...
In addition to ingredients, we need to consider design (love the neck) and craftsmanship. Certainly checking out the acoustic properties of the wood before building (but hopefully AFTER cutting to shape, since every cut changes the stresses in a block of wood, which probably changes vibration patterns) reflects a meticulous attention to detail.
However, let's say Mike took two pieces of wood he found acoustically very different, but which looked alike. Now he builds two basses, with the same pickups and strings, plugged into the same amp with the same settings. Would you be willing to guarantee that you personally would be able to tell the difference consistently? Would you be willing to guarantee that Mike himself could consistently identify them properly under amplification? Or would the acoustical differences in the body blocks be too subtle (I'm sure they would be for me) and/or lost in the influences of the neck, the bolts or glues, the idiosyncrasies of the electronics, the influence of equalization, etc. etc.?
So while testing the acoustical properties of body blocks is an impressive gesture, I'm reminded of the tale of the princess and the pea. Or the story of N-Rays. And I wonder what Mike does with beautiful pieces of wood that sound inferior to him when he raps them with his knuckles or however he does it.
Nonetheless, I will readily admit that some nominally identical guitars sound distinctly different to me. The other day, I had the opportunity to try two Schecter Stiletto Studio 5-string basses back-to-back. Let me put it this way: I'm glad I didn't buy one of them over the net based on how the other one sounded. *Something* is making a difference.
As for looks, I think there are so many choices out there that one ought never to be in the position of having to pick between a good-looking blah-sounding bass, and an exciting-sounding base that can't get past the ugly filter. You can find both looks and sound if you try.
And taste in sound being what it is, I don't see how any kind of QC could reject a bass as bad-sounding. Out of tune, faulty pickups or wiring, sure. But tone quality is really subjective, as much as good looks.
Brad Johnson said:
Is this really true of many boutique builders? I wouldn't know personally, as I haven't tried many boutique instruments. I don't know who in particular you're talking about (and you don't have to mention names
) but it's surely not guys like Sadowsky, Ken Smith or Roscoe whose basses have a signature sound. Maybe you were thinking of Wishbass.
Flintc said:
Since you're specifically talking about Mike, you can take idiosyncrasies of the electronics out of the equation.
Would I guarantee that I could tell the difference? I don't know... what would the acoustic differences be between these two similar looking woods? Subtle differences can be hard to pick up. Less subtle differences not so hard.
Would "I" guarantee what "Mike" can discern? That's a pretty odd question, isn't it? Would "you" guarantee what someone else can do?
He doesn't use them as tone woods.
Look, I'm not trying to convince you that this is anything more than how silly you're trying to posture it. I know that Mike isn't the only builder who consider tap tones important and I also know that my experience with builders who thing it's voodoo is that they usually don't build as pleasing a product. Coincidence? Sure.
And nominally identical means...?
If it's that simple everyone would do it. Do they?
It apparently isn't but by all means believe what you want. Actually the more I talk about it the greater a waste of time it appears. People don't seem to get that there's a level of SKILL involved in making better higher end basses. People who want to make "skill" synonymous with "magic" and "voodoo" should probably be left to their own devices. If anyone truly thinks that the level of hits to misses of a production facility under the watchful of someone other than Mike (without Mike's experience) will be anywhere near the same under his eye or by his hands.... well alrighty then.
That's the difference between dealing with a factory like Gibson and a luthier who puts his name and rep on every instrument. If you don't see that, I understand. It happens. I've seen it.
Of course if you're building for looks, doing the menu approach for building (picking woods on looks alone, as many builders do), tone is inconsequential.
Flintc said:
Kevin usually asked for a pic of the customer's favorite t-shirt and tries to match that.
Apparently some of you don't have much experience with custom basses. Either that or you just like the majority of stuff that's out there. Nothing wrong with either of those. If you truly haven't come across a builder who will let you pick whatever look you want without regard to tone, you're not looking very hard. Of course anything can be fixed with pickups or EQ so no big deal.
Bass Viking said:
I had the same experience with my Carvin LB75F... the last bass I tried to "fix" with an electronics "upgrade". It wasn't bad, it was merely okay. When I got my Zon Legacy fretless the Carvin so paled in comparison it seemed a waste of time to even play it. The difference between a good bass and a great bass doesn't matter to many. It matters to me.
Brad,
You earlier told us that there are custom-building luthiers out there who are selling the sizzle but not necessarily the steak. So I guess I'm hearing you say that the mass-production folks (Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Music Man, Warwick, Yamaha, and on down the line) are by their very nature unable to manage a very high percentage of hits. These companies are selling into a market where cost is a very real consideration, which they supply with workmanlike product. Decent wood, acceptable hardware, attractive fit and finish. By gosh and by golly, every now and again the (mostly mechanized) process just happens to hit on a great chuck of wood, and they have a hit. According to Wikipedia, musicians have found that a few of the old Korean plywood basses somehow had exceptionally good sound. But it was damn rare.
So here is our situation: If we are going to buy from a major producer, we'd better audition before buying and bring our finest sensibilities along, because most of them will be misses. If we buy from a custom builder, we'd better hope we chose a good one, someone like Mike with an outstanding reputation. And we'd better hope our tastes are similar.
Incidentally, I think the Brubaker KXB bass looks fabulous, and while you're kind enough to talk to me, I'd like to ask you about it. The "standard feature" list is given as:
Lightweight ash or silver maple body
Highly fingured spalted maple top
(with matching fingerboard and headstock)
Hard maple neck-one piece quartersawn Ebony fingerboard
with matching spalted maple overlay
Bartolini XXP25 quadcoil with NTMB 3 band eq preamp
Hipshot style A brass bridge- chrome black or gold
Hipshot Ultra Lite tuners- chrome black or gold
Finish- Clear Translucent finish.
OK, with the black hardware, this sounds very good. But sadly, there is no base price given for the "base" (no options) instrument. following the above list is a price list for the options. And oddly enough, a couple of the options are ALSO listed as part of the base unit (like the spalted top and single cutaway body style). I find this confusing.
But just from talking with you, I'm impressed enough to give such a bass serious consideration. I'm shopping (not real diligently, but I'm at the "keeping my eyes open" phase) for a 6-string in the $2-3K range. Is a question like that permitted on this forum? I understand you've made no effort to sell me anything.
Yeah, I probably phrased that wrong. I was just wondering.
Then I didn't quite give the right impression. I'm certainly not a luthier. I know that one instrument can sound distinctly better than another (and as I've said, I bought mine because it had a "magic" sound, to my ear). I don't know which contributions to the sound are really important, and which are "lost in the noise" so to speak. For all I know the acoustic properties of the tone wood make a distinctly audible difference. I guess I'd need some good way to hold all other variables constant...
It means, same make and model, constructed of the same woods the same way, using the same brand of new strings, with the same pickups and onboard electronics, played through the same cable and amp. Since I'm not talking about custom-built instruments here, I'm talking about two instruments from the same production run, so that the acoustic properties of the tone wood would be the most important difference, or at least as close as we could get.
I get the distinct impression that the "it" in your question doesn't match the antecedent I intended. Let me try again. I'm saying that if price is no object, anyone willing to take the time to look around can satisfy BOTH their eye and their ear with the same instrument. The only reason I can think of that people might not is cost constraints. If I only had (say) $300 to spend, I'd have to make some compromises.
What makes this frustrating for you, probably, is that someone like me must take this on faith. I may not be listening carefully, but I hear you saying that production facilities typically lack people (or one super-guru) capable of exercising this level of skill. Or maybe you're saying that the economics of a production environment make the application of that level of skill too costly.
You earlier told us that there are custom-building luthiers out there who are selling the sizzle but not necessarily the steak. So I guess I'm hearing you say that the mass-production folks (Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Music Man, Warwick, Yamaha, and on down the line) are by their very nature unable to manage a very high percentage of hits. These companies are selling into a market where cost is a very real consideration, which they supply with workmanlike product. Decent wood, acceptable hardware, attractive fit and finish. By gosh and by golly, every now and again the (mostly mechanized) process just happens to hit on a great chuck of wood, and they have a hit. According to Wikipedia, musicians have found that a few of the old Korean plywood basses somehow had exceptionally good sound. But it was damn rare.
So here is our situation: If we are going to buy from a major producer, we'd better audition before buying and bring our finest sensibilities along, because most of them will be misses. If we buy from a custom builder, we'd better hope we chose a good one, someone like Mike with an outstanding reputation. And we'd better hope our tastes are similar.
I think this is a misunderstanding, but probably on my part. What seems to have happened is, we were looking at the Tobias-by-Gibson as a bass-for-a-price. That price places these instruments spang into the custom-builder's range, so these are the natural competitors. And your position is, Gibson simply isn't set up to compete in terms of sound quality with these guys. Gibson can presumably match the custom builders in looks, design, rarity of the woods, and mounted hardware. But Gibson simply isn't organized to breathe on every instrument individually, and probably doesn't have the skill mix to do it right anyway. And so if you order a Tobias-by-Gibson, you're taking much bigger chances with the sound. I think this makes good sense.
Incidentally, I think the Brubaker KXB bass looks fabulous, and while you're kind enough to talk to me, I'd like to ask you about it. The "standard feature" list is given as:
Lightweight ash or silver maple body
Highly fingured spalted maple top
(with matching fingerboard and headstock)
Hard maple neck-one piece quartersawn Ebony fingerboard
with matching spalted maple overlay
Bartolini XXP25 quadcoil with NTMB 3 band eq preamp
Hipshot style A brass bridge- chrome black or gold
Hipshot Ultra Lite tuners- chrome black or gold
Finish- Clear Translucent finish.
OK, with the black hardware, this sounds very good. But sadly, there is no base price given for the "base" (no options) instrument. following the above list is a price list for the options. And oddly enough, a couple of the options are ALSO listed as part of the base unit (like the spalted top and single cutaway body style). I find this confusing.
But just from talking with you, I'm impressed enough to give such a bass serious consideration. I'm shopping (not real diligently, but I'm at the "keeping my eyes open" phase) for a 6-string in the $2-3K range. Is a question like that permitted on this forum? I understand you've made no effort to sell me anything.
Brad Johnson said:Apparently some of you don't have much experience with custom basses.
You can say that again. When it comes basses, most of us aren't spoiled rotten like you Brad.
Seriously, I don't get an opportunity where I live to to try out the boutique gear I read about on Talkbass. The list of high-end products I've never seen in this town reads like a who's who of the luthier world. When I hear talk about "mojo" and "voodoo" it makes me want to barf. If a luthier can get consistently good results it's a testament to his skill, not some magical, unseen powers at work that we don't understand.
Bass Viking said:You can say that again. When it comes basses, most of us aren't spoiled rotten like you Brad.
When I hear talk about "mojo" and "voodoo" it makes me want to barf. If a luthier can get consistently good results it's a testament to his skill, not some magical, unseen powers at work that we don't understand.
My first custom bass was purchased used... actually I traded a BC Rich Mockingbird that I bought with the intention of trading straight up for it. Cost of the Mockingbird... $500. The custom bass... 78 Tobias.
That bass hung at a store for about three years, nobody willing to take a chance on an unknown bass. It was obvious the quality was there so I went for it.
I'm a bargain hunter AND I have no aversion to the internet plus I travel... great combination for getting hands on with the cooler stuff out there. Plus I love used gear... no aversion there either. All that made it very easy for me to figure out what works for me and what doesn't.
The "voodoo" and "magic" thing bugs me... the luthiers whose work I really respect don't use either. There's nothing mystical or magical about it IMO... some people just know what they're doing. Look at how long Mike has been building and look at his work over that entire time. He was one of those rare guys that "got it" from the beginning and just kept pushing the envelope. Kevin Brubaker has been building for close to twenty years and I've seen him go from his early works that were cool to what he builds now which are phenomenal IMO. It's a learn as you go gig.
Flintc said:
Here's one "variable" that I in fact do find to be a constant... the luthier
. That's the main component that concerns me. I know what Mike Tobias does. I know what Rob Elrick does. I know what George Furlanetto does. I definitely know what Kevin Brubaker does. I would have absolutely no qualms about ordering a bass from any of these builders because the chances of me getting a bass I was truly disappointed with would practically be nil. This would of course be after discussing what I'm trying to get tonally and getting their input on how to get there. I know what they do... and more improtantly, they know what they're doing. I know what they do that I really like. Let's say I was ordering an Elrick (which, considering how many I currently have, would suggest a truly clinical problem). I know that what I'll call "the experiment" basses per the customer's wishes are the only ones I haven't cared for. I'd go with his trademark light Ash body. Figure out what kind of top I'd want on it (for looks alone). I'd probably do a bolt-on. Wenge neck, his standard Bartolini electronics package. Done.For me there's no risk in that because Rob nails that EVERY time IME. It's when people decided to do a different pre or pickups or tonewood that things get hairy IMO of course. Rob has it down to a science.
I've played a bunch of Fender MIA JD5s over years. I've never picked up a substandard one. I don't recall hearing any marked difference between basses when strung and setup identically other than tonewoods and fretboards. They're consistent.
The problem with that is, throwing money at it only means you'll end up with a expensive bass. It may not be worth a damn playing or soundwise
BTW "it" comes in many varieties. I was at Atomic yesterday goofing around with an orange-ish Japanese violin bass with a headstock that looked like it had an anvil cut into it. It had been refinished in the vertical position as evidenced by the thick runs. Binding missing on the fretboard, black and chrome pickups with phillips screw pole piece, I plugged it into a Peavey Mk VII head with a 210 and giant 1-15 cab and that sucker sounded like the sixties
It had "it"... and they were asking around $250 for it.
"It" is all about what "you" like. The price doesn't have to be exhorbitant.
No, dismissing this with a princess and the pea analogy really doesn't give credit where credit is due.
When people complain about the price of customs, do they ever ask themsleves how much it would cost to gain the same expertise as some of these builders? I doubt it... they just compare one brand to the next.
I have no idea how you'd guess that. Music Man basses are extremely consistent. So are Fenders IME, despite what others seem to think. Hint: a bad setup and/or dead strings is a TEMPORARY thing
I didn't say they were selling the sizzle, there may be no sizzle at all visually, just what the customer wants... visually.
If you find a luthier that you can't talk to about what you're trying to end up with, why bother? If you can't articulate what you're trying to do or worse yet, ignore what the luthier is telling you they can do, that's a recipe for unhappiness.
On the major producer tip, if I wanted a Musicman, I'd have no qualms about ordering one sight unseen. Same goes for Fenders, Yamahas, Laklands and several other vendors. Very consistent IMO.
Nope... not my position at all
. Gibson very well could compete on sound quality. Heck, Fender competes on sound quality. So do many of the Korean instruments being built today. I liken this to me when I would try to mimic Freddie Hubbard when I played trumpet. This single thought always hounded me:"I hear "what" he's doing and can mimic it... I just don't know "why" he's doing it"
Understanding the "why" would allow them to better compete. Maybe they do... I don't know.
The same is true with luthiery IMO. If you build with esthetics as the primary focus, unless you're lucky the sound won't be consistent. That's not good... it makes being an actual player and ordering one a complete crapshoot. If you (generally speaking) see Mike doing a Lacewood top on Alder wings with a multilam neck and don't understand that that alone won't guarantee you anything other than having the same components, there's the problem.
Corporate vision statements are nice but meaningless until truly put into practice.
They (Gibson) could be organized to go the last mile like smaller luthiers do but that adds time and cost to the equation. The thing is, for what they're asking for their upper end basses, you're paying the equivalent of that so why shouldn't you get it?
Here's my bottom line... you can ask whatever you want for whatever you're building, the buyer is the ultimate judge of worth. For Gibson to price their upper end Tobiases where they seem to be, despite their history, you'd think they'd nail it damn near every time. Maybe they have, I don't know. Again, it's an uphill battle.
I can respond via PM or you can contact Kevin at the website. Apologies for the pricing confusion.
Bass Viking said:You mean like with Dave Pushic?
Do you still own that 78 Tobias?
Actually (even though I know you were joking), have you seen Dave's more recent work?
Dave unfortunately did the learn as you go thing the hardest way possible... in public. I can empathize with that.
Yep, still have the 78. Not going anywhere anytime soon. BTDT.
Brad Johnson said:
I've never played a Pushic but his stuff looks pretty nice in the photos I've seen. I've read horror stories on TB though and have to say I sympathize with the buyers. Hopefully, his work has improved.
Brad.
You seem to be saying that these custom luthiers have spent long hard years developing mastery of their craft (something very hard to translate into large-scale automated production), but you also seem to be saying that large-scale automated producers can produce consistent excellence anyway.
In a couple of weeks, I need to go to Nashville for another purpose, but I'll have time to check out what I can find there. As I say, my experience so far has been positive. I know the sound I'm looking for; I haven't found it in the lower end instruments, but as you point out, money alone only guarantees that you'll buy something expensive.
Yes, this is also my experience. Which implies that a high hit-rate does NOT require a Mike Tobias, it can be automated right into the assembly line. Which in turn implies that the SKILL you're working to emphasize is either pretty common, or cloneable into mass production.
You seem to be saying that these custom luthiers have spent long hard years developing mastery of their craft (something very hard to translate into large-scale automated production), but you also seem to be saying that large-scale automated producers can produce consistent excellence anyway.
OK, I think I understand. And while distinctions in quality in basses over about $2500 are admittedly lost on me (they all sound different, but with few exceptions they all sound great), distinctions in price are very real. I bought the $2K bass over the $5K bass because it flat sounded better to me. If this particular line consistently has this particular sound (I would expect the ingredients and workmanship to be the same), then I'm sold. But as you say, it's an uphill battle.
In a couple of weeks, I need to go to Nashville for another purpose, but I'll have time to check out what I can find there. As I say, my experience so far has been positive. I know the sound I'm looking for; I haven't found it in the lower end instruments, but as you point out, money alone only guarantees that you'll buy something expensive.
Flintc said:
I don't think that the skill level I'm referring to with the more accomplished builders is all that common.
Remember we're talking two different levels of construction. Compare a Nordstrand, Fodera, Brubaker, etc. construction-wise to a Music Man or MIA Fender. The Fender/MM are fine for the price point they're being built at and if the sound, playability, look, etc. are what you seek, they're the answer.
So yes, those production companies can produce consistently excellent examples of their work in my opinion. OTOH ask Ernie Ball to price out a bass with Nordstrand pickups, 3 band Bart preamp, 19mm spacing with a wider nut, Burl Walnut top on Ash body, matching headstock, Snakewood fingerboard with inlays... not going to happen. They do production work, custom builders do custom. Gibson is doing custom work. Custom typically costs more. It also doesn't work well large scale because of the economy of scale which is a big problem doing custom work. You can't make 100 of the basses I described because selling 100 of them at a profit would be next to impossible. OTOH limit the choices and you can increase the scale of production (sales notwithstanding).
Being able to tell the difference...
Sometimes this stuff all comes off as snobbish to some people. "You think you're better than me?" kind of thing. As we become more familiar with our instruments, sometimes we look for a next level instrument. It's hardly any different from any other instrument but for some reason some bassists have animosity towards this. I don't know why.
That hasn't been my experience with $2k+ basses. Some have been downright disappointing. Others, okay at best. For example, there was one nice looking higher end bass that came through Atomic Music used. Changed hands several times, each time the buyer figured with a bass that looked as nice as it did, fixing the sound should be possible. Many hear seem to think the same thing.
After several different attempts at "fixing" the sound, I'm not sure where it ultimately ended up. The problem with the sound? It sounded absolutely blah, nothing the least bit interesting about it. Sounded two dimensional. Not good, not bad... indifferent.
Sometimes when you shine up a pig you only end up with a shiney pig
"Adequate" will get you through a gig or be fine for casual use. "Good" will probably make that use more fun. It won't hinder you... so you'll have to find another excuse
. "Excellent" usually inspires you to play. That's been my experience. There are many excellent looking basses out there and with truly unknown quantities, I can't really get excited until I know the bass delivers the whole package. I get people telling me about the next big thing on a regular basis. Some deliver, some don't.That can come from anecdotal evidence from people you trust or better yet, as you say, firsthand experience.
Of course this can't be that simple. One of the biggest isssues with custom basses is the player. I
have a bunch of used basses people got rid of because they didn't "allow" them to do what they thought they should be able to with them. You know... "How come my Yamaha doesn't make me sound like John Pattitucci?"
Yep. Hope you have a nice trip.
