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Tobias ... No wait, MTD ... GIBSON ... HUH?

Brad,

I think I'm finally getting it. To be honest, I really don't have enough experience with enough top-dollar basses; those I've heard are the ones those whose ears I trust were willing to spend what it costs to buy them. So it's probably a very slanted sample. I'm not going to claim ownership of the sort of golden ear that can hear these differences, although perhaps I would agree in the case you mention here, the shiny pig.

And this was in fact my reaction to the two $5300 Tobias signature model basses I tried out. Beautiful workmanship, top quality woods carefully matched and positioned, same electronics as what I bought. But no excitement in the sound. I like a dark, punchy sound with lots of overtones. It wasn't there. These expensive basses produced a clean, smooth clear thin sound. Someone else may love it.

I must say, I don't have the impression Gibson is doing custom work in any way. They have their formula, they don't take special orders, you the buyer don't get any choices except tone wood - and you only get Gibson's choices. Exactly like choosing a color for your car - it comes in 4 colors. Which one do you want? As a customer, your interaction with any particular Tobias bass starts after the completed bass is delivered to the dealer. Not before.

But there's that big grin I can't suppress every time I pick up the Tobias Killer B and pluck a note. And there's the fact that I never want to set it down, and never get tired of listening to it. And for that I'm willing to pay whatever I can afford. And maybe unfortunately, all the basses I've found that affect me that way have been very expensive.

Well, I'm not going to evaluate the quality of by instruments by headcount. A few great ones is better than a roomful of "adequate", for me.
 
Flintc said:
In a couple of weeks, I need to go to Nashville for another purpose, but I'll have time to check out what I can find there.

Do yourself a favor and check out The LowEnd Bass Shop- www.thelowend.net just about everything under the sun has been through that shop!

I think Brian even has a Pre-Gibson Signature and several MTD's in the shop now. Then you can check out the Gibson Store in the Opry Mills Mall for the New Tobias stuff.
 
Do yourself a favor and check out The LowEnd Bass Shop

Sigh. Last month I made a special trip to Murfreesboro to visit The Low End bass specialist. 2287 NW Broad St. right? Of course, this was on a Saturday, just around noon, since I can't get there on weekdays. And wouldn't you know, the store is closed on weekends, has very limited hours (like 11 to 3 or something) on weekdays, and otherwise by appointment.

I peered through the door (the windows were covered with something, but the door was at least a little bit transparent), and I saw a single empty room with a desk on one side, and maybe half a dozen tired-looking Fenders in the adjacent corner. The rest of the room was totally empty. In the center of the back wall was another door. Maybe the goodies are behind that one?

Fortunately, the shop was directly across the street from a large Harley dealer, so the trip wasn't a total loss. Harley stores are fun to wander around in.

I'm going to be in the neighborhood on Saturday again (why oh why do stores insist on being closed when their customers are off work and able to shop there?) I'll take your advice ahd look at the Gibson Store. I think I can find Opry Mills Mall. I'll also check the Nashville Guitar Center outlet and the Valley Arts store, both of which Gibson lists as Tobias outlets.

But I'll be shopping for a lot more than just Gibson. I shop by ear first, by price second (because my budget is sadly deficient), and by brand only by accident.

Thanks for your advice. I will do my best.

(Footnote: The Low End has a fine website, and the pictures of the David Fernandez bases get me aroused. In fact, ALL those custom basses look good on the web site. The site doesn't say (a) whether any such things are in stock or must be special ordered; or (b) how long it might be to get one and what it might cost. But the pictures are juicy, I'll give him that.)
 
Viking:

Yeah, this is one of those things where if I have to explain, you can't understand. I'll try anyway. I've played a LOT of instruments in my life since I was about 2, several of them professionally. I've made recordings both popular and classical, played in orchestras, done session work, and played in clubs (this on woodwinds - flute in orchestra, sax in clubs, baroque recorder for studio recordings and concerts).

The bass is the first stringed instrument I've played. I have played tuba and baritone, so the low end is not new to me. And like probably everyone else in the world, I've noodled on guitar, mostly electric (enough to develop a fairly advanced flatpicking technique). I like to think (who doesn't?) that I can recognize a good sounding, well-built instrument when I see and hear one.

So what precipitated this thread was, I went out to buy the best bass for $3K or under that I could find, on the basis of build quality and sheer sound. I'd have paid $3K for a Squier if it had that sound. I didn't care about resale value, I never intended to resell anything anyway. I wanted the best I could find.

And the Gibson Tobias met my standards. What did NOT live up to what my ear demanded was Fender, Ibanez, G&L, Yamaha, Austin, Schecter, Spector, Dean, Cort, Peavey, Washburn, Music Man. This might be a matter of pure taste, but to me these didn't have the sound quality I was looking for.

Other brands had good sound (Warwick, for example) but lacked comfort. Warwicks sound great, but playing them is like playing a salami. Warwick's necks are awful, and they're clueless about balance. And their basses weigh a LOT, making balance important.

Most custom-built instruments I've had a chance to try out have been owned by someone else, and aren't for sale. OK, I can dig it; these are made to order. They've been very good, some have been really super. But hopefully you understand that I looked for the best instrument I could actually buy after trying out in person. My experience with mostly woodwinds is, you NEVER buy before trying. You just simply don't know what it will sound like when YOU play it, until YOU play it.

And in the category of actually-for-sale, try before you buy basses, the Gibson Tobias basses are in my experience (limited to at most 2 dozen examples, to be sure) the very best in this category, with the Killer B models (the bolt-ons) the best of the line. Those I have tried have been extraordinary. Whatever Gibson is doing with this line, they have somehow nailed everything I ever dreamed of in a bass. Yes, maybe I could find something that worked for me even better, if I were willing to go with Brubaker or Mike Tobias or another famous-name luthier. But these instruments aren't available. Instead you pay, you order, you pray, you wait, and finally you take what comes. Guaranteed it will be beautiful. Guaranteed it will have passed the golden ears of the Famous Luthier. No guarantee it will be what you wanted.

Personally, I think Gibson has their processes pretty well under control, and the sound of their instruments will be fairly predictable. I have a bubinga body 5-string Killer B. I wouldn't hesistate at this point to order a 6-string bubinga body Killer B and I'd expect no lesser quality or sound than what I have. I *know* I'll like the look (true of any bass at any price - you know what it will look like) and I know the neck, balance, and sound will be as I love and want.

I also know the resale value will be problematical - getting out what I put in will be difficult if not impossible for at least a good while yet; Gibson trashed the Tobias line's reputation under duress, and it'll take a while (if ever) to recover.

But I have enough experience by now, and enough musical background, to know what satisfies me and what I'll keep forever. Which is why I'd pay $3k for a squier if it met my standards. Gibson's recent Tobias Killer B basses are, in my limited experience, as good as you can find at any price anywhere. At $2K, they are a true bargain. If you see one, try it out. Examine it closely. Play it. What can you lose? You're under no obligation to buy it, and you may like it.
 
Flintc said:
In the center of the back wall was another door. Maybe the goodies are behind that one?

OH YEAH! Behind that door is a bass player's heaven! He uses the front room for a office/workbench.

Just give Brian a call and if it's at all feasible he'll try to accomodate you-I went over on a Saturday and picked up my Benavente. And while his stock changes almost daily- all the instruments are in his shop or can be VERY quickly-some are local consignments. Trust me Brian has the best customer service around.
 
Kephah:

Thanks. I'll give him a call as soon as I have any money to spend. I'm going to be in the "just looking" phase until I get my last bass paid off and build just a little cushion. In a year or so, though, I'll be stoked and primed!
 
I've still got the Tobias Classic 5 I bought used for way cheap around '95-96, and they'll toss that bass in the coffin with me when I die...

henry.gif


Serial # is in the 1800s...
 
Well, I made it to Nashville, and had the time to visit two stores. I went to Sam Ash, and to the Gibson store in Opry Mills mall.

First, Sam Ash. They had a used Tobias Growler model, and I took a look at it. Frankly, it was almost indescribably horrible. I'd have been embarrassed to turn in work like that in my 6th grade shop class. The pickup cavities looked like they were routed by a drunk, then repaired by another drunk. The bolt-on neck had large cavities on both sides. The wood for the body couldn't have been selected or cut by a person; the grain had serious imperfections prominently featured right on the top front, as though they'd bought a random plank at Home Depot. I wouldn't have paid more for this bass than I could get for stripping off and reselling the electronics. Worst bass I ever saw.

On the plus side, the bass sounded pretty decent. My wife and I spent two hours playing all the basses Sam Ash had, and we found the Growler sounded at least as good as all but two others. There was a Ken Smith that was very obviously the pick of the litter, and pretty much blew everything else away. At about $3K, it damn well better. And the other strikingly superior sounding bass was a used Carvin LB70, in mint condition, red transparent over flame maple. Maybe $400 for that bass, and a steal at the price.

Then over to Gibson's outlet. This large store had quite a group of Tobias basses - one growler, one classic, three killer B's, three basics, one signature model. The salesman at Sam Ash had warned me that Gibson charged full (otherwise fictional) list price at their store, and this price was reflected in all the price tags.

I grabbed the growler, and I was appalled. The routing was only marginally less shoddy, but the instrument was not playable. The E string just kind of laid on all the frets! The G string had nearly correct action, but every bridge saddle was raised to the highest possible level.

A quick look at where the neck bolted on was informative. One side was flush against the body, while the other side had about an 1/8" gap. This twisted the entire neck (and the slot in the body might have been for a 5-string, it was so much wider than the neck). What's baffling is why Gibson would display such an instrument in their store in the first place.

All of the remaining Tobias basses, however, were immaculate. The workmanship was flawless, everything fit properly, the materials were topnotch. The signature model was quite a work of art, with maybe half a dozen different kinds of wood inlaid in a complex flame pattern on the top. Extremely high quality work. All of the routing in all of the other Tobias guitars was perfectly straight, perfectly spaced around the pickups, and carefully rounded at the edges and buffed up. The contrast with the growler couldn't have been more stark.

Because it was Sunday afternoon and the store was mostly empty, they let us grab four at a time to take into a soundproof room full of bass amps to try out. In our opinion, every one of these instruments was at least a match in sound quality for the Ken Smith, and one of the Basic models had that magical sound you dream about - rich, alive, and resonant.

The salesman assured us that he was willing to go $200 under the best price we could find on the net for any of these instruments - and by this, he meant a true $200 (on the net, there's no tax and no shipping, so none at Gibson's store either). Plus free setup to our taste. Not an unreasonable offer, I thought.

Anyway, that's how I saw things. I personally wouldn't be willing to pay $4800 for the signature, despite the fabulous inlay work. We couldn't tell any difference between the sound of the signature model, and the sound of anything except the "nailed this one" sound of the one Basic model.

Otherwise, I remain convinced that (except for the execrable growler model) Gibson's Tobias basses are worth what you end up paying for them. They aren't steals by any means, but in no way are they ripoffs. The Carvin, now, that was a steal.
 
Flintc said:
The salesman assured us that he was willing to go $200 under the best price we could find on the net for any of these instruments - and by this, he meant a true $200 (on the net, there's no tax and no shipping, so none at Gibson's store either). Plus free setup to our taste. Not an unreasonable offer, I thought.
While this is great for the customer it's a horrible thing for Gibson, who are known for their very tough reseller rules, to undercut their resellers so sharply. Gibson makes some strange decisions.
 
tombowlus said:
Does this count?

IMG_3465.jpg


It's a Contender 4, and I understand that only 5 were ever made. This one has been a bit beat, though, and needs some TLC from Michael.

Tom.

That is three extremely fugly basses*.

:D

Nice, Tom. Any idea when it was built? I noticed the trussrod cover on the headstock instead of the body.


*figured I'd save him the extra typing;)