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Tonal Difference: paint vs no paint

O

octaverazor

Jun 3, 2009
385
9
Houma, LA
#1
First I'd like to say that I love the feel of a butt naked bare wood neck. No paint, oil, nothing. Which over the years has led me to sand any finish off of any instrument that I get. Every time, without exception, the tone changes slightly. Sometimes it changes greatly and I have come to expect it after I'm done. Most of the time I find it improves the sound.
So...it lead to experiment. I decided to sand the finish of the back of my Vintage Vibe Telecaster, with its super thick poly finish, to see if that would further improve tone. I think it did. I think its a great middle ground between no finish, I don't care for the natural look, and a thick poly paint on cheaper made instruments. Just my thought. I was wondering what you guys think.
 
#5
Most definitely not in my head. I've sanded finish off of necks too many times. With out taking the thing apart. Just tape up the pickups, knobs, etc.
I've went as far as playing the bass, sanding (which takes about half an hour to do a good job) and come back to the same amp same, same setting. It takes some midrange out of the sound and the strings seem to blend together better.
You can say its all in my head but I know the its not. Now I'm not saying I can tell the difference between a painted neck and unpainted. All I know is it undoubtedly changes the tone.
 
#6
Get a cheap bass and record it, strip the finish and record it again. If I hear a difference I will believe you, but I really think it is psychological, especially when you talked about the sound being different after stripping the back. The only places I would think it would have ANY effect is under the bridge and in the neck join, and even then it would be slight at best.

Edit: or even better, record the waveforms of the bass before and after.
 
#8
It's real and it exists. However, to proclaim the paint is the culprit is inaccurate: it's the thickness of the finish that is the cause.

Two identical instruments will sound different from an oil finish and a clamshell of polyester dip.

I would call BS on anyone saying they hear a difference between lac and acrylic lacquers.
 
#10
This is a great example of how unreliable our senses are. Everything we perceive is so much filtered by our psyche and preconceptions that you cannot untangle how what we perceive is really related (or not) to the physical world. None of us should be too misled by what we think we hear, see, smell et cetera. You just can't trust any of it.
 
#12
mikeyswood said:
It's real and it exists. However, to proclaim the paint is the culprit is inaccurate: it's the thickness of the finish that is the cause.

Two identical instruments will sound different from an oil finish and a clamshell of polyester dip.

I would call BS on anyone saying they hear a difference between lac and acrylic lacquers.
Click to expand...

Yes the thickness is what I think is the difference. That is why nitro finishes are so popular. Its not that nitro is some magic paint. Its that nitro is applied very thin.

Me taking the finish off the back is thinking that the least amount of paint on the guitar the better but still wanting the look of a finished guitar without getting it refinished in nitro.
 
#14
bassybill said:
This is a great example of how unreliable our senses are. Everything we perceive is so much filtered by our psyche and preconceptions that you cannot untangle how what we perceive is really related (or not) to the physical world. None of us should be too misled by what we think we hear, see, smell et cetera. You just can't trust any of it.
Click to expand...
Thank you Bill, (and mikey) for injecting some known and double blinded, randomly controlled trial science into the mix. Cognitive Bias is the largest effect at play here. The problem is, we hear with our eyes. People can argue their tonal 'science' all they want, the bottom line is it is opinion based on unreliable eyewitness testimony and thinking your own opinion is a reliable indicator of variability flies in the face of 100 years of psychology and is simply put, plain wrong...
 
#15
I'm a firm believer in cognative bias and the importance of blind testing and I also understand that my opinions are worth the paper (or screen) they are printed on. That being said in my experience there is a distinctly different sound and feel between a raw or oil finished instrument and an instrument with a thicker clear coat finish. Every bass that I build gets wired and setup before I do the finish and not only have I consistently found a difference, I have consistently found the same difference. Raw and oil finished instruments have a warmer sound than an instrument with a thicker clear coat. Personally I prefer the tighter sound that I percieve in the clear coated instruments. While anecdotal evidence cant be used to exclusively prove anything its also very shortsighted to completely discount the experience of luthiers in the case of something as subjective as musical instruments. Without proper blind testing it's just as wrong to say a percieved quality doesnt exist than to say that it does.
 
#16
bassybill said:
This is a great example of how unreliable our senses are. Everything we perceive is so much filtered by our psyche and preconceptions that you cannot untangle how what we perceive is really related (or not) to the physical world. None of us should be too misled by what we think we hear, see, smell et cetera. You just can't trust any of it.
Click to expand...

This!

If its in your head..real or perceived and it makes you feel and play better...so be it... good luck trying to convince the rest of us..

Does any of this really matter?
 
#17
Of course it matters. It's the luthiers corner. We come here to give and recieve opinions and ideas. We do it (generally:D) in a constructive manner with the goal of learning about our craft. This is consistently the most polite and educational sub forum on talkbass and I find it very valuable.
 
#18
Well... Our opinions don't really matter. If you hear a tonal difference and fine this beneficial, then more power to you. I'm sure it has something to do with the nuances in the tone though. A neck with a thinner finish/no finish probably vibrates better than one that has 30 coats of lacquer on it. Seems logical.
 
#19
Big B. said:
Of course it matters. It's the luthiers corner. We come here to give and recieve opinions and ideas. We do it (generally:D) in a constructive manner with the goal of learning about our craft. This is consistently the most polite and educational sub forum on talkbass and I find it very valuable.
Click to expand...

Im missing the point of this response but alas...Yes this is the luthiers corner...not sure where a paintwood debate is relevent here but ok...

Prove me wrong but I doubt anyone will read this thread and run out and paint and or strip their neck b/c it may produce some perceived difference.

To restate what I already have... to me it makes no difference..painted or not..and arguments for or against are all over this site..it comes down to 99.99% opinion and thats it. There is NO factual based data proving otherwise. I will also say that 99.99% of people actually listening to the music we make (if we actually make any) could care less and or not tell a difference. As I said..if this (un)discernable difference actually exists to some so be it..but please dont expect some of us to buy it or even care really.... if it works for you and your head and makes you feel good and actually play better...then so be it..thats great.. I find other things to motivate me outside of paint and little nuances in tone.
 
#20
But its the nuisances that make the difference between a good instrument and a great instrument. All those little things add up.
Now I didnt start sanding my necks hoping to change the tone, I did it because I prefer the feel and noticed a difference in tone. I was bummed at first, but after playing for a while I prefer the tone also.
 

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