Tonal Difference: paint vs no paint

[Big B.]

The point is not to prove you or anyone else wrong. The point of this sub forum is for builders to come together and offer opinions about all of the various aspects of building instruments. I consider myself to be a pretty competent luthier and so are many other guys that post here. We all build different types of instruments with different sounds and feel in mind. I find it very interesting to know what techniques other builders use to reach their desired goals. I cant think of an area on this site where the debate between types of finishes would be any more appropriate.

In the midst of your tirade you actually expressed a valuable opinion and if it was delivered in a somewhat reasonable tone I would be happy to discuss. If I wanted people to tell me I should keep my opinions to myself I would post in the Basses or Amps forums. As it is I come here because the level of discourse is generally far higher than in other parts of talkbass. Part of my living is building quality instruments for discerning players and I take every aspect of the build, from wood choice to finish, very seriously and so do my customers. To that end I thank you for your input and I hope some other folks can add to the discussion as our interaction is at an end.

 

[Beej]

I'm a firm believer in cognative bias and the importance of blind testing and I also understand that my opinions are worth the paper (or screen) they are printed on. That being said in my experience there is a distinctly different sound and feel between a raw or oil finished instrument and an instrument with a thicker clear coat finish. Every bass that I build gets wired and setup before I do the finish and not only have I consistently found a difference, I have consistently found the same difference. Raw and oil finished instruments have a warmer sound than an instrument with a thicker clear coat. Personally I prefer the tighter sound that I percieve in the clear coated instruments. While anecdotal evidence cant be used to exclusively prove anything its also very shortsighted to completely discount the experience of luthiers in the case of something as subjective as musical instruments. Without proper blind testing it's just as wrong to say a percieved quality doesnt exist than to say that it does.

You are such a gentleman, my hat tips to you! I too highly enjoy the discussions in this forum, it is a great venue for respectful exploration of issues that are dear to many of us.

I'm not trying to pick on you Big B., in particular because I think you are not one to shout an opinion from a mountaintop, but I will use your post as an illustration of what I so frequently get at in this forum (I hope you don't mind).

its also very shortsighted to completely discount the experience of luthiers in the case of something as subjective as musical instruments

This is an example of a very common cognitive bias known as 'argument for authority'. Luthiers are people. They may have a specialized skillset, but they are still susceptible to errors in attribution.

Among the more commonly expressed cognitive biases I've observed in tone discussions are: observer-expectancy effect, Dunning-Kruger effect, outcome bias, neglect of probability bias, illusory correlation, illusion of validity, focusing effect, bandwagoning, confirmation bias and good old expectancy bias.

Many 'differences' can be noted, but one of the major issues is attribution of causality to a limited number of variables, and then ranking of those on largely emotional or subjective reasons. I'm not dismissing out of hand the experience of luthiers who may have built hundreds of instruments, I'm saying that their expertise lies more in techniques of construction than in accounting for perceptual variation...

 

[LightGroove]

But its the nuisances that make the difference between a good instrument and a great instrument. All those little things add up.
Now I didnt start sanding my necks hoping to change the tone, I did it because I prefer the feel and noticed a difference in tone. I was bummed at first, but after playing for a while I prefer the tone also.

I hear ya brother..I really do but where do these nuances actually play a part besides in our head. If it feels good GREAT!..I like a raw wood neck myself...My point is ..Once you change strings, change amps, di's whatever it all changes again. Then you have new nuances which make the others really irrelevant.. Ive heard my Roscoe sound a number of different ways in the studio recently all with a quick twist of a knob on the board.

Next it will be I changed the color of my guitar chord...or even changed my chord period

To Each Their Own! Cool you found something you like.

 

[Big B.]

Beej, I completely agree with your post. As a "devout" (if you will) sceptic I expected you would hit me with that and I would be foolish to argue against it. The thing that strikes me with this example in particular, as opposed to the tonewood discussions for example, is that whenever I see a company or a luthier speak about about this topic they nearly always state the same conclusion that I have reached about the percieved sound difference. While this cant be seen to be as ironclad as blind testing, in my mind it offers a strong basis to begin a discussion with. When authorities repeatedly reach the same conclusion that smoke starts to hint at a fire. While anecdotal evidence is nearly useless in a scientific sense I ultimately have to rely on my own perceptions as a builder and having the opportunity to play my pre finished basses through the same rig with every part intact except for the finish makes for a good foundation for obervation. Obviously the 2 weeks or so between finish and non finish and the lack of recordings make my observations suspect at best, but its at the least a good point to start.

And thanks for the hat tipping. I appreciate that. The LC is one of my only internet hangs because of the generally abyssmal level of conversation out there on the web and I do my best to reflect that with my posts.

 

[LightGroove]

The point is not to prove you or anyone else wrong. The point of this sub forum is for builders to come together and offer opinions about all of the various aspects of building instruments. I consider myself to be a pretty competent luthier and so are many other guys that post here. We all build different types of instruments with different sounds and feel in mind. I find it very interesting to know what techniques other builders use to reach their desired goals. I cant think of an area on this site where the debate between types of finishes would be any more appropriate.

In the midst of your tirade you actually expressed a valuable opinion and if it was delivered in a somewhat reasonable tone I would be happy to discuss. If I wanted people to tell me I should keep my opinions to myself I would post in the Basses or Amps forums. As it is I come here because the level of discourse is generally far higher than in other parts of talkbass. Part of my living is building quality instruments for discerning players and I take every aspect of the build, from wood choice to finish, very seriously and so do my customers. To that end I thank you for your input and I hope some other folks can add to the discussion as our interaction is at an end.

Tirade? I think Ill pass... Im actually as laid back as they come and commenting as such..japologies if things are coming off ina specific manner.. I am confused as your turning this into something that it really is not...I feel like this is twisted into some kind of semantic argument.. I think Ive shared my opinion as the OP requested... but Ill come back to what i said earlier. Does any of this REALLY matter? To a minority..maybe....for the rest of us nope...i can probably line up 100 guys in a blind test and guaranty a 100 will not be able to find a discernable difference.. Its been proven on this very site a number of times. Cool your passionate about building and attention to detail...Cool youve been doing this and have mastered a skill..whether any of that is relevant to anything remains to be seen. I think we can say we both have differing opinions and thats ok.

Until you can prove to me what your hearing it will remain in the "opinion" category and treated as such.