Tone Pot Capacitors question

[Ringhammer]

From what I have found here, would the following info be correct?
Based on the three digit code I see on the caps that I have:
223 = .022 mfd = brighter range of tone control
473 = .047 mfd = normal range of tone
503 = .050 mfd = deeper range of tone
104 = .104 mfd = very deep range of tone

I have bought plenty of Fender solid shaft 250k pots from “Bass Parts Resource” and they always come with the 104 caps. I’m guessing the intent is that it is assumed that these pots will be in a guitar.

My guess that the 473/.047 or the 503/.050 is best for a typical Jazz Bass with Seymour Duncan of Lindy Fralin pickups?

 

[Killed_by_Death]

The cap you select is based on how much of the high end you want to eliminate from the timbre & also how it affects the sweep of the pot.
I prefer 500K Ohm pots & a 47 nanoFarad capacitor for the treble cut, which gives you more brightness when it's fully clockwise, but still takes off enough high end when it's rolled back.

If you wanted it to remain brighter when completely rolled back, use the 22 nanoFarad cap.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

From what I have found here, would the following info be correct?
Based on the three digit code I see on the caps that I have:
223 = .022 mfd = brighter range of tone control
473 = .047 mfd = normal range of tone
503 = .050 mfd = deeper range of tone
104 = .104 mfd = very deep range of tone

I have bought plenty of Fender solid shaft 250k pots from “Bass Parts Resource” and they always come with the 104 caps. I’m guessing the intent is that it is assumed that these pots will be in a guitar.

My guess that the 473/.047 or the 503/.050 is best for a typical Jazz Bass with Seymour Duncan of Lindy Fralin pickups?

104 = .1
Though with tolerances a .1 could easily measure .104

 

[RobbieK]

TBH, if you only use the tone control to roll off a little bit of treble, the cap value makes no difference. For 75-80% of the sweep it's actually the loading of the pot that's rolling off the treble. The cap value only really comes into play if you like to play with it rolled right off or down in that first 1/4 of the pot's sweep. And when it's right down you actually get a tiny boost in the low mids because the cap is directly between hot and earth and creates a resonance. The value of the cap then governs the frequency of that resonance.

 

[Ringhammer]

Thanks for the info everyone, but I don’t seem to know the answers to the original questions I wanted to know about.
So, can anyone confirm the following?

Does the code listed equal the value below?
223 = .022 mfd
473 = .047 mfd
503 = .050 mfd
104 = .100 mfd

What value is standard in an early 70’s Jazz Bass?

Why would Fender supply a “104” code cap with their 250k tone pots? Seems like maybe it’s intended to be used a guitar.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

104 = .100 mfd

10 = 10 picoFarads (10 to the power of -12)
4 = multiply by 10,000 (move the decimal point to the right 4 spaces)
10 to the power of -8 = 0.00000010 Farads = 0.1 microFarads = 100 nanoFarads

Decimal Prefixes and Multiples, Powers of Ten

 

[fermata]

.047 and .05 uF are functionally the same. The exact value (tolerance notwithstanding) and labeling changed at some point, but you can think of them as being the same. Here's a guide to codes: Link Removed

And here's a good demo of how different cap values affect tone:

As you can hear, each cap value has a different 'hinge' frequency where it starts to bleed off the highs. The smaller the value, the higher the hinge. That's why .1 uF sounds so deep and dubby; it's letting quite a bit of signal bleed off to ground, with pretty much only low mids and below remaining. .068 is similar; .047 and .033 keep more mids intact; and smaller values, like .022 uF mainly affect higher frequencies.

Then there's the resonant mid-bump, which may or may not be pleasant. That depends on the pickups, etc. Fully rolled off, .022 and smaller can be pretty honky; the larger caps sound smoother. But dial the tone control to 1 or 2 (or put a resistor between the cap and ground), and the resonant bump smooths out.

Check out the graphs here to see what this looks like: BassesByLeo • View topic - Passive Tone Controls on G&Ls

[One more note: the type of cap (as long as it's unpolarized) is irrelevant for a passive tone control. (There's a lot of snake oil being sold out there...or maybe I should say paper in oil.) The value is what matters. If you want a cap that has (close to) the value that's printed on it, get one with 5 or 10% tolerance, which shouldn't cost more than a buck or two.]

 

[RobbieK]

Ha, that's my video! That rotary switched cap control exploits that resonance you get with the tone pot all the way down. But yeah I had to put a little resistor in line with 6 or 7 of the middle settings because the resonant peak was too high. The nice thing about this sort of control is that it gives a steeper roll - off and a little bit of resonance, so each position has a bit of character. I still have this control in my P and I love it.

FWIW, I'm just about to post a new video all about how passive tone controls work...

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Thanks for the info everyone, but I don’t seem to know the answers to the original questions I wanted to know about.
So, can anyone confirm the following?

Does the code listed equal the value below?
223 = .022 mfd
473 = .047 mfd
503 = .050 mfd
104 = .100 mfd

What value is standard in an early 70’s Jazz Bass?

Why would Fender supply a “104” code cap with their 250k tone pots? Seems like maybe it’s intended to be used a guitar.

Go to section 2. Reading compact capacitor codes.
How to Read a Capacitor

I know that a 0.1 cap with a 250K pot would normally be pretty dark in a bass.
Not sure how that works out in a guitar which is an octave higher.

 

[sikamikanico]

FWIW, I'm just about to post a new video all about how passive tone controls work...

Please share when you do!

 

[saabfender]

I like .022 for Jazzes and .047 for the P-Bass. I constantly use the tone pot and have it engaged almost always. Having a large useful range is critical to me.

FWIW, I have found more expensive caps to return different results than cheap ones. Sure it’s slight but I can feel the difference every time. It’s not like we’re talking about serious expense either. A chicklet cap costs about 50 cents retail and something better can be had for $3-5 each. Of course it makes sense for large manufacturers to keep costs down there.

“Snake oil” implies someone’s making money by selling goods with no useful function. Nobody’s buying a boat selling $5 caps. I’ve been doing this to my guitars and basses for over 20 years and can hear a difference every time. Sometimes it’s a small improvement. Sometimes it’s the difference between a useful tone circuit or not. On my MIA Strat, it was huge. I can use the whole knob, where before it was essentially binary.

The PIO caps have a nice “ring” to them. That’s the only way I can explain it. I rather like whatever that effect is. I buy Soviet ones off eBay for like 5/$15 delivered. Plus they look cool. Spragues are nice quality also. Componentry quality makes a difference in literally everything else in the world. Why would that not hold true inside a bass guitar?

 

[fermata]

[canofworms]If you're talking about capacitors in an amp circuit, material matters. But in a passive LCR circuit (a bass), it doesn't; all that matters is the value, and any differences one hears are as a result of different values. (The more money one spends on caps, the harder this is to believe.)

Ceramics sometimes get a bad rap because the tolerance can swing as much as 80% (!), so another cap with the same marked value could sound dramatically different--because the actual value could be dramatically different. (That doesn't mean wide tolerance ceramic caps are bad; they do their job as well as any cap. What it means is it might take a handful and some alligator clips to find the one that works best in a particular bass. Or, for more predictable results, caps with 5 or 10% tolerance are nice. But they'll have the same effect on sound as any other cap with the same value.)

Since the cap is in parallel to the circuit, all it does is control which frequencies get dumped to ground, instead of making it to the output/amp. Basically, the sound one hears is the frequencies not affected by the cap, what's left after the cap dumps part of the signal to ground. It's a subtractive component. So one doesn't actually hear the cap or the part of the sound it affects; what one hears is what it doesn't affect.[/canofworms]

 

[MoeTown1986]

All of my Jazz basses wear a .033 cap. The .022 was too bright for my taste and the .047/.05 rolled out too much high mids for me. A .033 keeps the upper mids still present and aggressive.

 

[micguy]

There is no magic value of tone cap that works for all situations. In some of my basses, I have two modes ( a switch selects the mode. In one mode, the cap value is fairly "normal" - .027 to .047 uF. In the other mode, it's usually much lower - .0033 to .0075 uF. That range of capacitor, with the tone control fully off, with the lower impedance pickups I typically use, makes a bump in the 1.5 kHz (upper mids) range - the instrument "snarls" (which I like).

With normal impedance pickups, you'd need a capacitor 3 or 4 times smaller - maybe, .001 to .002 uF (aka 1000 to 200 pF) to do that. I suggest buying a wide range of cap values (at half a buck a piece from Mouser, 10 of them is only $5 or so), and some clip leads so you can try various values before choosing one to solder in place. I have a box with a bunch of capacitor values and a switch that I use to do this when building a bass, so I can get what I want the first time.

 

[saabfender]

[canofworms]If you're talking about capacitors in an amp circuit, material matters. But in a passive LCR circuit (a bass), it doesn't;

That sounds like nonsense and magical thinking.

 

[fermata]

That sounds like nonsense and magical thinking.

More like science. The magical thinking crops up in ads for expensive caps that guarantee to make your tone this that or the other. Since you can't actually hear the signal that goes through the cap (because it goes to ground), that's nonsense. Again, all that matters in this type of simple passive circuit is the actual value of the cap, because that will affect the circuit's resonance. The material is, well, immaterial in this application. But I rest my case. You're welcome to believe whatever you like.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

More like science. The magical thinking crops up in ads for expensive caps that guarantee to make your tone this that or the other. Since you can't actually hear the signal that goes through the cap (because it goes to ground), that's nonsense. Again, all that matters in this type of simple passive circuit is the actual value of the cap, because that will affect the circuit's resonance. The material is, well, immaterial in this application. But I rest my case. You're welcome to believe whatever you like.

+1
If you like the fancy caps that's fine with me.
If you think the fancy caps sound better that's fine with me too.
But if you want to convince me that the fancy caps have "better" tone, you'll need to bring me a lot of data points to back it up.

 

[saabfender]

More like science.

I’d love to examine said science.

 

[fermata]

The Truth about Tone Capacitors | Atlantic Quality Design, Inc. Musical Products
TL;DR "The data and sound clips above show clearly that for tone capacitors of close measured capacitance value there is no difference in tone."

 

[Killed_by_Death]

I think Saab Fender just got lucky & found the resonant peak (mid-bump) with the value of capacitance installed. That would probably bring about the kind of stuff described.