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Tonewood Experiment.

Are the impulse response that are captured, and then impressed on another instrument more than just an EQ curve? Do they effect the sustain and decay? In other words, are they time-based?

You know, whether or not one believes in tone wood, a set of time based EQ tone palettes might be interesting to use. I would venture to say that there may even be a market for such a system.

Impulse responses are time based, and they do capture decay, but traditional IR's won't capture distortion, compression, and other systems that are dynamic in nature. It's a point in time capture of the response of a system. They are used quite often to capture the reflections of a room to generate reverb profiles, and can capture the "flavor" of a cab. They are most often used to simulate reverb, speaker cabs, and microphones. A point in time snapshot of wood will capture the EQ and the ambiance of the wood. I am using a sine sweep to generate the IR's so that to capture the response at all frequencies. Here's a chart I created using a spectrogram analysis (hamming window, linear frequency, window size of 1024) of of two captured wood species when compared to the sine sweep source used to create the IR's, as well as each other.


walnut-and-maple.png
 
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Add one more thing to the list of weird ideas I have under my belt. I ordered parts to build a prototype stomp box and three modules to see if I can make this idea work. If all goes as planned the end result will be a box with a stomp box on/off switch on top, and a blend knob to add in sound captured from the input signal and passed through a wooden module. If anyone is interested I will post a build thread - I assume the Effects forum would be the appropriate place to put that.
 
Add one more thing to the list of weird ideas I have under my belt. I ordered parts to build a prototype stomp box and three modules to see if I can make this idea work. If all goes as planned the end result will be a box with a stomp box on/off switch on top, and a blend knob to add in sound captured from the input signal and passed through a wooden module. If anyone is interested I will post a build thread - I assume the Effects forum would be the appropriate place to put that.

This is some real mad scientist action. Shine on you crazy diamond.
 
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Sorry if I missed this in the chain, but, is this something I'll be able to plug in as a VST?

When I have the IR's created you can load them up using your favorite convolution VST - I personally use the ReaVerb plugin in Reaper, but any VST that can load an IR will work. I have heard good things about Invalid Link Removed, but have not used it personally.
 
When I have the IR's created you can load them up using your favorite convolution VST - I personally use the ReaVerb plugin in Reaper, but any VST that can load an IR will work. I have heard good things about Invalid Link Removed, but have not used it personally.

Excellent!

How big of a piece of wood do you need to create the IR? I have some Koa, Black Walnut, and other scraps
 
Impulse responses are time based, and they do capture decay, but traditional IR's won't capture distortion, compression, and other systems that are dynamic in nature. It's a point in time capture of the response of a system. They are used quite often to capture the reflections of a room to generate reverb profiles, and can capture the "flavor" of a cab. They are most often used to simulate reverb, speaker cabs, and microphones. A point in time snapshot of wood will capture the EQ and the ambiance of the wood. I am using a sine sweep to generate the IR's so that to capture the response at all frequencies. Here's a chart I created using a spectrogram analysis (hamming window, linear frequency, window size of 1024) of of two captured wood species when compared to the sine sweep source used to create the IR's, as well as each other.
Are your response curves those of a single piece of wood, or of an average of several as-closely-milled-as-possible pieces of wood, averaged out or added together? This would make them representative of a species, as opposed to just a particular piece, IF and only if it turns out that the multiple samples of one species show a response that is both significantly similar to each other, and significantly different to the averaged or summed response of a set of samples of a different species.
 
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Impulse responses are time based, and they do capture decay, but traditional IR's won't capture distortion, compression, and other systems that are dynamic in nature. It's a point in time capture of the response of a system. They are used quite often to capture the reflections of a room to generate reverb profiles, and can capture the "flavor" of a cab. They are most often used to simulate reverb, speaker cabs, and microphones. A point in time snapshot of wood will capture the EQ and the ambiance of the wood. I am using a sine sweep to generate the IR's so that to capture the response at all frequencies. Here's a chart I created using a spectrogram analysis (hamming window, linear frequency, window size of 1024) of of two captured wood species when compared to the sine sweep source used to create the IR's, as well as each other.


View attachment 748965

Interesting, now prove we can actually hear that difference. ;)
 
Add one more thing to the list of weird ideas I have under my belt. I ordered parts to build a prototype stomp box and three modules to see if I can make this idea work. If all goes as planned the end result will be a box with a stomp box on/off switch on top, and a blend knob to add in sound captured from the input signal and passed through a wooden module. If anyone is interested I will post a build thread - I assume the Effects forum would be the appropriate place to put that.

Yes, I'd be very interested to see this built. Looking forward to the build thread.
 
Are your response curves those of a single piece of wood, or of an average of several as-closely-milled-as-possible pieces of wood, averaged out or added together? This would make them representative of a species, as opposed to just a particular piece, IF and only if it turns out that the multiple samples of one species show a response that is both significantly similar to each other, and significantly different to the averaged or summed response of a set of samples of a different species.

The samples were from single pieces of wood for each species due to personally availability and financial concerns.

Interesting, now prove we can actually hear that difference. ;)

The size of my sample set is not large enough to prove anything other than two boards sound different. In my opinion the main problem with "proving" that maple sounds like A and walnut sounds like B would be in recording enough boards of a particular species of maple that a bell curve emerges. Considering the variances of wood density, grain, moisture, size of the samples, thickness of the samples, and countless other factors, the sample size would have to be huge and varied for a single species of wood for my numbers to be anything other than a curiosity. No matter how I approached the problem there would always be people that called the approach, the size of the sample set, the results, and a fair number of other factors into question.

Yes, I'd be very interested to see this built. Looking forward to the build thread.

To be quite honest I am a hesitant about doing a build thread. I have to assume that LC is not the place for such a thread, and engaging a new set of people in the effects sub-forum risks dealing with the tonewood debate, which I am *not* interested in discussing. My little experiment has yielded results that I find both interesting and personally useful. The pedal is going to be an oddity, like me, and I am sharing this information with you guys so you have it and can do whatever *you* want with it. The IR's will be free for anyone to use for any purpose they see fit, but they are not intended to prove or promise anything. ;)

@all - Let me state it here if I have not been clear enough in previous posts:

1. I did some experiments and observed some interesting results.
2. Based on my limited experimentation I discovered I could create some things I think are cool.
3. I am sharing all of this with you so you can do something of your own with it if you are interested.
4. I am not trying to prove anything, or convince anyone of anything.
5. Proselytizing and/or debating is not my thing, sharing is.
 
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...
To be quite honest I am a hesitant about doing a build thread. I have to assume that LC is not the place for such a thread, and engaging a new set of people in the effects sub-forum risks dealing with the tonewood debate, which I am *not* interested in discussing. My little experiment has yielded results that I find both interesting and personally useful. The pedal is going to be an oddity, like me, and I am sharing this information with you guys so you have it and can do whatever *you* want with it. The IR's will be free for anyone to use for any purpose they see fit, but they are not intended to prove or promise anything. ;)

@all - Let me state it here if I have not been clear enough in previous posts:

1. I did some experiments and observed some interesting results.
2. Based on my limited experimentation I discovered I could create some things I think are cool.
3. I am sharing all of this with you so you can do something of your own with it if you are interested.
4. I am not trying to prove anything, or convince anyone of anything.
5. Proselytizing and/or debating is not my thing, sharing is.

You mentioned doing a thread in the effects forum. I'd agree a build thread for this would fit well there. Also, I don't see this as a "tone wood" issue. You captured some sounds in an IR format, and are using that to shape the sound of an instrument. I'm fascinated by the concept, and would love to hear the results, and see how you came up with the process and execution.
 
You mentioned doing a thread in the effects forum. I'd agree a build thread for this would fit well there. Also, I don't see this as a "tone wood" issue. You captured some sounds in an IR format, and are using that to shape the sound of an instrument. I'm fascinated by the concept, and would love to hear the results, and see how you came up with the process and execution.
Fair enough. Here's the story of how all of this came about....

I was sick as a dog and on OTC medication that kept me from using power tools. The side effects of the chemicals in my system, and my general malaise banished decent night time rest and I was up at odd hours. Lack of sleep does funny things to my already strange mind, and for some reason my thoughts centered on impulse responses and capturing resonant spaces. I have used acoustic body resonances to create interesting effects on recorded bass lines and wondered if anyone had created IR's for just wood. I could not find anything, so I pulled out a few of pieces of scrap wood (maple, shedua, cedar, walnut) and recorded the sound of my striking them with the handle of a screwdriver. I then converted the resulting recordings into IR's and experimented with them. Applying the IR's to a recorded bass line produced results that I very much liked, and I was intrigued. The maple IR affected the tone in the same way that many people say maple affects tone of an acoustic guitar. I then looked up the published properties of the other species on the Tonewood Datasource, which is a web site dedicated to compiling information of this sort. Interestingly enough my very rough samples were affecting the tone very similarly to what was documented on the site.

Not satisfied that my samples were truly representing the EQ of the wood due to the methodology I was using to collect the samples I ordered a tactile transducer and proceeded to collect samples using a sine sweep, which produces more accurate results. The resulting IR's are much cleaner, and reinforced the results from the first round of tests. To be honest I was giddy. The way the IR's affected the tone was wonderful to my ears, and I immediately thought that it would be a shame to keep this to myself. The results also spurred on new lines of thought. Could this be used outside of the studio? Absolutely - a $200 IR loading pedal could free these for use on stage. Woods that would be impractical or undesirable to use in an instrument build (e.g. balsa, etc.) could be "modeled" and used to color tone if the sounds are pleasing.

Traditional IR's are not able to capture as much of the physical properties of how sound is affected when passing through a material as I would like....what could I do to replicate this experience? A pedal...perhaps a large pedal, depending on how large the wooden modules will need to be to produce significant differences between wood species.... What if the modules were in two varieties? Solid blocks will produce tight sounds, and hollow modules *might* produce more resonant effects. I have ordered all of the parts to build a prototype and have no doubt that it will produce something useful, even if it's not what I expect. I already have a list of the things I know will be problematic, and certainly more will become apparent as I play around. I think that the foot switch will need to be in a separate enclosure to avoid large spikes of noise being picked up by the microphone in the unit. It might be larger than is desired. Would a piezo with a large frequency response included in the module provide interesting results? It would require an additional preamp built in, but that's doable. What about having both a piezo and a condenser mic....perhaps with either a switch, or additional blend pot... There's a lot of potential for an interesting and unique effects "processor".

How does this play into an instrument build? My goodness...the possibilities are endless. I have been pondering an idea for an acoustic instrument that has an internal sound board for a long while now, and the results of this experiment will provide further evidence for it's possible feasibility. It's not like I really need to add one more build to my list, but I love to dream.
 
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Fair enough. Here's the story of how all of this came about....

I was sick as a dog and on OTC medication that kept me from using power tools. The side effects of the chemicals in my system, and my general malaise banished decent night time rest and I was up at odd hours. Lack of sleep does funny things to my already strange mind, and for some reason my thoughts centered on impulse responses and capturing resonant spaces. I have used acoustic body resonances to create interesting effects on recorded bass lines and wondered if anyone had created IR's for just wood. I could not find anything, so I pulled out a few of pieces of scrap wood (maple, shedua, cedar, walnut) and recorded the sound of my striking them with the handle of a screwdriver. I then converted the resulting recordings into IR's and experimented with them. Applying the IR's to a recorded bass line produced results that I very much liked, and I was intrigued. The maple IR affected the tone in the same way that many people say maple affects tone of an acoustic guitar. I then looked up the published properties of the other species on the Tonewood Datasource, which is a web site dedicated to compiling information of this sort. Interestingly enough my very rough samples were affecting the tone very similarly to what was documented on the site.

Not satisfied that my samples were truly representing the EQ of the wood due to the methodology I was using to collect the samples I ordered a tactile transducer and proceeded to collect samples using a sine sweep, which produces more accurate results. The resulting IR's are much cleaner, and reinforced the results from the first round of tests. To be honest I was giddy. The way the IR's affected the tone was wonderful to my ears, and I immediately thought that it would be a shame to keep this to myself. The results also spurred on new lines of thought. Could this be used outside of the studio? Absolutely - a $200 IR loading pedal could free these for use on stage. Woods that would be impractical or undesirable to use in an instrument build (e.g. balsa, etc.) could be "modeled" and used to color tone if the sounds are pleasing.

Traditional IR's are not able to capture as much of the physical properties of how sound is affected when passing through a material as I would like....what could I do to replicate this experience? A pedal...perhaps a large pedal, depending on how large the wooden modules will need to be to produce significant differences between wood species.... What if the modules were in two varieties? Solid blocks will produce tight sounds, and hollow modules *might* produce more resonant effects. I have ordered all of the parts to build a prototype and have no doubt that it will produce something useful, even if it's not what I expect. I already have a list of the things I know will be problematic, and certainly more will become apparent as I play around. I think that the foot switch will need to be in a separate enclosure to avoid large spikes of noise being picked up by the microphone in the unit. It might be larger than is desired. Would a piezo with a large frequency response included in the module provide interesting results? It would require an additional preamp built in, but that's doable. What about having both a piezo and a condenser mic....perhaps with either a switch, or additional blend pot... There's a lot of potential for an interesting and unique effects "processor".

How does this play into an instrument build? My goodness...the possibilities are endless. I have been pondering an idea for an acoustic instrument that has an internal sound board for a long while now, and the results of this experiment will provide further evidence for it's possible feasibility. It's not like I really need to add one more build to my list, but I love to dream.

First up, I'm really pleased you got over your illness and you're building again.

Secondly, you've done some really cool stuff there! :thumbsup:

Let me tell you my thoughts on it though...

1. For acoustic instruments, you're spot on. There's still no definitive measure as to how this actually transfers into an electric instrument. That's the big issue.

2. Additionally; even with an 'internal soundboard' instrument, you still need a way for people to amplify it live. That takes us back to point one. I say this because I spend a LONG time last year trying to find a good pickup for my handmade 000 guitar and it was a nightmare. My resonator has been a similar challenge. Don't even get me started on my upright bass. Without carrying a very expensive condensor mic it's very hard to get the actual sound of a great acoustic. Heck even a great mic could colour the sound somewhat and obscure the sound of the timber.

The real issue for us stringed instrument players/builders is, we've taken a chamber instrument and now we want it loud enough to hear in a stadium. Unfortunately, we can't have it both ways. :rollno: