Double Bass Top/Table Grain

[eerbrev]

Hello makers and repairers,

There's been a lot of discussion in the "Basses" forum about old instruments, and I have noticed that some of these old basses have flatsawn, or partially flatsawn tops. I have heard some explanations regarding why this was done, including luthiers not really giving a hoot, and unavailability of large pieces of quartersawn.

i guess what i kind of want to know is what sort of affect does this quartersawn wood have on the bass, and is it going to be good, bad, or just different? and if it's good, why don't we do it, if it's bad, does that mean these surviving basses are good despite this imperfection, and if it's just different, why don't people still do it?*

*I know that Jason Sypher has bass with quartersawn wood on the top, but his bass seems to be an exception, and from what I gathered from the thread the luthier's work is considered "rough".

thanks in advance for the information, guys. cheers in the new year,


eerbrev

 

[Dr Rod]

I have played so many great basses that were made with flat sawn wood, knotted wood, or multiple piece tops with the grain going every which way, that I am convinced that what really matters is the skill of the maker, and very little else.

 

[George700DL]

Hello makers and repairers,

There's been a lot of discussion in the "Basses" forum about old instruments, and I have noticed that some of these old basses have flatsawn, or partially flatsawn tops. I have heard some explanations regarding why this was done, including luthiers not really giving a hoot, and unavailability of large pieces of quartersawn.

i guess what i kind of want to know is what sort of affect does this quartersawn wood have on the bass, and is it going to be good, bad, or just different? and if it's good, why don't we do it, if it's bad, does that mean these surviving basses are good despite this imperfection, and if it's just different, why don't people still do it?*

*I know that Jason Sypher has bass with quartersawn wood on the top, but his bass seems to be an exception, and from what I gathered from the thread the luthier's work is considered "rough".

thanks in advance for the information, guys. cheers in the new year,

eerbrev

Rumano Solano offers both slab-cut tops and quarter-sawn: Solano Basses | Gallery

I made my top from 16 spruce pieces, but I think it still qualifies as "quartersawn"

George

 

[forester]

anybody find the repair less diffulcult in a quartered top since for the most part they tend to split straight,w/good vertical edges,etc. flatsawn seems to have little direction,just the path of least resistance?

 

[jtlownds]

Slab cut wood is more prone to warp than quarter sawn.

 

[eerbrev]

Slab cut wood is more prone to warp than quarter sawn.

So is it a freak of nature that these other slab cut tops have survived so long, or was something done to keep them from warping, such as extra drying time? Is slab cut wood more prone to warping because of the less even grain?

This sort of stuff fascinates me.

eerbrev

 

[George700DL]

anybody find the repair less diffulcult in a quartered top since for the most part they tend to split straight,w/good vertical edges,etc. flatsawn seems to have little direction,just the path of least resistance?

Come to think of it... do slab cut tops really crack all that much? I can't picture why they would?

 

[forester]

So is it a freak of nature that these other slab cut tops have survived so long, or was something done to keep them from warping, such as extra drying time? Is slab cut wood more prone to warping because of the less even grain?

This sort of stuff fascinates me.

eerbrev

i don't believe it is a freak of nature..just a balance...and the builders intuitve knowledge of the materials and it's limitations.
trial and error go a long way.
look for failure in wooden things in your everyday life...how the fence post split,the floor opened up,the maul handle broke,a tree, snapped at 30ft.etc... notice success as well, and the long enduring qualities when the materials suit the application.
.02

 

[Schoolhouse]

We are making our first slab sawn top now. Historically, basses with grain that runs out are less arched then the vertical grained examples. Maybe this has something to do with it?

 

[powerbass]

There is an argument that flat sawn lumber could be stiffer/stronger if stresses are applied perpendicular to the growth rings compared to quarter sawn - as in a double bass top. Here is an interesting website article Lutherie Myth/Science: Quartersawn Wood is Stronger and Stiffer Than Flatsawn

 

[arnoldschnitzer]

Quartersawn lumber swells and shrinks half as much as flatsawn. In a bass top, the additional movement (with flatsawn) in such a wide plate can cause all kinds of issues with cracks and openings elsewhere on the instrument. Also, almost all old flatsawn bass top plates have sunken severely, have been re-arched, and considerable repair wood has been added to help the top plate keep from sinking again. Most higher-end modern makers avoid using flatsawn wood because we worry about problems down the line. Flatsawn tops can sound really good however, because flatsawn wood is weaker than quartersawn, and in a bass, weaker equals wider vibrations (more bottom). If I were to use a flatsawn top, I would only use wood that has been severely tortured, over-dried, then re-acclimated. And I would carve it thicker than quartersawn wood.

 

[robobass]

Sinkage is an issue. I know someone with a very old Italian slab cut bass which looks like a Dali painting

(edit: my Pfretzchner is caved in as well, but not in such an interesting way)

 

[eerbrev]

Quartersawn lumber swells and shrinks half as much as flatsawn. In a bass top, the additional movement (with flatsawn) in such a wide plate can cause all kinds of issues with cracks and openings elsewhere on the instrument. Also, almost all old flatsawn bass top plates have sunken severely, have been re-arched, and considerable repair wood has been added to help the top plate keep from sinking again. Most higher-end modern makers avoid using flatsawn wood because we worry about problems down the line. Flatsawn tops can sound really good however, because flatsawn wood is weaker than quartersawn, and in a bass, weaker equals wider vibrations (more bottom). If I were to use a flatsawn top, I would only use wood that has been severely tortured, over-dried, then re-acclimated. And I would carve it thicker than quartersawn wood.

Thanks for all the info guys, and thanks for the response, Mr. Schnitzer. Super cool to learn about all of this stuff and get some answers from people in the field.

eerbrev