Total newb confused on bass amplification

[JustDavid]

So I'd just need to make sure impedance doesn't drop too low? I think my SVT has two 4 Ohm outputs and the amp automatically drops to 2ohms if both are plugged in.

So I'd need a 4 Ohm speaker-level DI?

And I'd get my fat fat SVT tone sent to the board? That would be mighty.

(My SVT is so old, the line out is not balanced, nor does it work anymore.)

It's ALWAYS a good idea to keep your head's load impedance in mind but such a DI would, comparing to speaker impedances, be essentially an open circuit. Safe to disregard it as a loading component.

You'd lose the cab sound this way, but not the head sound. Note well that you've now got a real chance to pi$$ off Sound with unannounced level & tone adjustments.

 

[JimmyM]

It's ALWAYS a good idea to keep your head's load impedance in mind but such a DI would, comparing to speaker impedances, be essentially an open circuit. Safe to disregard it as a loading component.

You'd lose the cab sound this way, but not the head sound. Note well that you've now got a real chance to pi$$ off Sound with unannounced level & tone adjustments.

I hate soundmen with that attitude. Guitarists can step on a million pedals and change their sound and levels completely every song, even in the song itself, and nobody complains. Yet the bass touches one knob and soundmen freak. What the hell is the soundman getting paid to do if not to adjust levels? How hard is it to move a fader? Oh, God forbid the bass player ever cause the soundman to lift a finger! A soundman tells me that, I call him a lazy bum with no idea what he's doing.

 

[TimmyP]

Sorry, not true at all. A mic absolutely can give you the deep bass response of a DI if it's spec'd to do it and your cab can put it out.

Exactly. Trouble is, none of the cabs can put it out. Not even the Acme or H&K.

And while I'm all for keeping the soundman happy, it's my gig, not theirs, and they should be more worried about keeping ME happy. Why should I be miserable just to make them happy?

Cause if the soundguy ain't happy, it's because someone in the band is making it impossible to get the sound right by being too loud either overall (common for snare and cymbals), at certain frequencies (bass cab exciting room modes), or in certain places (4x12 cabinet's "flashlight beam" highs). If you are the one causing the problem, you are ****ing it up for everyone. It's not about any of the people playing on the stage, it's about the audience.

 

[TimmyP]

I hate soundmen with that attitude. Guitarists can step on a million pedals and change their sound and levels completely every song, even in the song itself, and nobody complains. Yet the bass touches one knob and soundmen freak. What the hell is the soundman getting paid to do if not to adjust levels? How hard is it to move a fader? Oh, God forbid the bass player ever cause the soundman to lift a finger! A soundman tells me that, I call him a lazy bum with no idea what he's doing.

We certainly do complain about the guitarists and the keyboardists who's volume levels are all over the place, and who's patch tones are so inordinately different that we have to EQ the channel constantly as they players bounce back and forth. With bass we have room modes to contend with, thus it can be even more difficult to deal with changes in what the bassist is sending to the console. When we are dealing with the guitarist's and the keyboardist's problems whilst trying to keep the vocals above the din of the cymbals, we don't need the bass to be yet another moving target. (Although I've never had a bassist come anywhere close to being as big a problem as many V-Drum users.)

 

[JustDavid]

Going through level games in my band now. Guitarists hear recordings & complain about the soundman failing to turn them up during their leads. I'm getting tired of this BS & am about to start asking why they are requiring Sound to correct for problems they have created.

I am purely mystified how can someone view that problem as being in the realm of Sound & not in the realm of Guitar. To my view it's almost like blaming Sound for them playing the wrong chord or note.

 

[Handyman]

Exactly. Trouble is, none of the cabs can put it out. Not even the Acme or H&K.

What exactly is the point of getting a frequency too low to reproduce in a speaker cab to the mixing board?

 

[TimmyP]

What exactly is the point of getting a frequency too low to reproduce in a speaker cab to the mixing board?

Because the bass is producing those frequencies, and the lower the frequency the better it feels. Most bass cabinets start to roll off fast around 60Hz to 65Hz (which is an octave above open B). By the time you get to 41 (open E) most cabinets are pretty much gone. Even if EQ could help, very few bass rigs have the EQ to do it. Many PA subs can do it with EQ (remove the bump at 80Hz or 60Hz, and bump up the 30 or 40), and the system has the EQ to do it. (Few soundpersons accomplish this, because they have never heard real bottom end, so they don't know what they are missing. If it's hitting you in the chest (where 60Hz through 160Hz hit) instead of the gut (where 30Hz through 50Hz hit), it's not right.

 

[JimmyM]

Because the bass is producing those frequencies, and the lower the frequency the better it feels. Most bass cabinets start to roll off fast around 60Hz to 65Hz (which is an octave above open B). By the time you get to 41 (open E) most cabinets are pretty much gone. Even if EQ could help, very few bass rigs have the EQ to do it. Many PA subs can do it with EQ (remove the bump at 80Hz or 60Hz, and bump up the 30 or 40), and the system has the EQ to do it. (Few soundpersons accomplish this, because they have never heard real bottom end, so they don't know what they are missing. If it's hitting you in the chest (where 60Hz through 160Hz hit) instead of the gut (where 30Hz through 50Hz hit), it's not right.

It's not right if you're in a doom band looking to make people puke. It's perfect if you play regular bass in a band whose purpose is trying to make music and not induce seizures. I absolutely hate bass amps that go really low because all it does is create mud.

 

[nboyer941]

Don't mean to change the subject, but since its my thread....

Do you guys think this is a good deal?

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Stumbo]

I don't know if it's a good deal but here's a review of the equipment that may help you out: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284140

Have you tested it yet?

 

[TimmyP]

It's not right if you're in a doom band looking to make people puke. It's perfect if you play regular bass in a band whose purpose is trying to make music and not induce seizures. I absolutely hate bass amps that go really low because all it does is create mud.

What bass amps go really low and create this mud? I've yet to hear one that did.

 

[Stumbo]

What bass amps go really low and create this mud? I've yet to hear one that did.

I suggest that another thread be started for this topic.
/hijack

 

[ga_edwards]

Don't bother having a cheap DI on hand, as the sound provider should have one. And these days most amps have a usable DI output.

For rehearsal, do whatever works for everyone, likely amp or DI but not both.

It does make me chuckle, the number of times a sound guy has told me the DI in my £400 LMII head is no good (or the one in my previous £700 Warwick CCL combo). Only for them to pull out a £30 Behringer passive DI box.

It's like an automatic response, all external DI boxes, no matter how cheaply made are better than any built in to an amp head. Now I'm not Behringer bashing or anything, but if they had pulled out a posh Radial or something with a bit more quality behind it, I may be more inclined to agree with them. But hey, even if I had a EBS Microbass, or a Sansamp, they would still prob insist their Behringer is infinitely better.

PS, always ended up using the built in one on the amp when they realised it's actually better!

 

[EricF]

It seems like this thread got WAY off of the original question for a while (good tech discussion, but possibly way over the noob original question).

In my experience, it has to do with the venue. Sometimes just running a DI to the PA is appropriate, sometimes that option isn't even available and you need to play through your rig without any PA support (DI or mic). For the small clubs my band is currently playing, I'm usually running a single cab (either 210 or 410) and it's fine for filling the room with bass. Occassionally, a soundguy will want to take a DI, and I'll have him plug into the SansAmp on my pedalboard.

My point is, be knowledgeable and flexible to whatever the situation is. If you have preferences, fine, but be ready for anything.

 

[chondro776]

There are a number of ways to achieve good live sound:

1) Charm the sound guy
2) Bribe the sound guy with alcohol, groupies, contraband, etc.
3) Be the sound guy

Sound guys (and gals) are far better friends than enemies. Strickly IME a genuine smile and friendly approach goes a long way towards getting your sound how you want it.

It is your gig, but you are on their turf.
Why can't we all just be friends?

I think the answer to your question is whichever way you want to, if the sound guy is your buddy.
I DI (post EQ /effects loop) out of a Yorkville Head. The 4x12 cab is to make my pants bounce for the ladies.