• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Triad Pairs

#21
For me, practicing triad pairs was and is just the logical extension of practicing triad arpeggios. We do not set out practicing triads in order to "put a bunch of triads in our improvised solos." We practice triads because they are building blocks of music, just like 7th chords, or "hexatonics" which are 6-note scales, which can be also be thought of as a pair of triads.

Anything that you practice a little and then try and throw into a solo will probably sound contrived. We have to practice something simple (like the sound of two alternating triads) to perfection in order to make that technique a useful improvisational tool.

So, if you are ready to try something new, then you might want to practice some combinations of triads over certain sounds--these things actually sound pretty good, and a lot of great players make use of combinations of triads. For me, it is easier to think of a C7#9 as a C triad with an Eb minor triad on top, rather than to think of "the upper partials of a C7#9 arpeggio." I've practiced thinking both ways -- a lot -- and now I don't think much about it, unless I am explaining it to someone.

With that in mind, here are a few triad pairs and ways to play up and down them. I would also get Walt Weiskopf's book and/or Bergonzi's book if this interests you greatly. As always, if triad pairs do not interest you, then by all means, whatever you do -- do not practice them!

Triad Pairs (all based on a C something chord):

C7sus: C & Bb triads. up: C E G D F Bb E G C F Bb D G C E Bb D F C E G
down: (high) G E C F D Bb E G C D Bb F C G E Bb F D G E C

Cmin7 (or Cmin11): Cmin and Bb triads. up: C Eb G D F Bb Eb G C F Bb D G C Eb Bb D F C Eb G
down: (high) G Eb C F D Bb Eb G C D Bb F C G Eb Bb F D G Eb C

CMaj7#11: C and D triads. up: C E G D F# A E G C F# A D G C E A D F# C E G
down: (high) G E C F# D A E G C D A F# C G E A F# D G E C

C7#9: C and Ebmin triads. up: C E G Eb Gb Bb E G C Gb Bb Eb G C E Bb Eb Gb C E G
down: (high) G E C Gb Eb Bb E G C Eb Bb Gb C G E Bb Gb Eb G E C

C7b9b5: C and Gb triads. up: C E G Db Gb Bb E G C Gb Bb Db G C E Bb Db Gb C E G
down: (high) G E C Gb Db Bb E G C Db Bb Gb C G E Bb Gb Db G E C

You'll find all sorts of triad pairs that you can use once you get comfortable. Like these:

C7#9b9b5b13: alternate Ab and Gb triads. Works great if you are resolving to an F chord.

C7#9b9b5b13: alternate Ebmin and Dbmin triads. Also works great to resolve to F.

C7susb9: alternate Bbmin and C triads.

C7#11: alternate C and Daugmented triads.

And the list goes on . . . the sky is the limit. I have actually practiced all of these things, and I think it helps me feel comfortable playing over more complicated chord structures. It is a more modal, scalar approach as opposed to a beboppish approach. Not better or worse, just mo'.

Have fun ;)
 
#22
Mike Crumpton said:
By the way guys, have a look at 'Expansions' by Gary Campbell - a slim volume on how to put together scales and patterns (incuding triad pairs) and practice them in a systematic manner and how you might use them. Campbell says himself that these things show up first in his composing but not in his soloing for some time. We must be patient.
Click to expand...

Gary Campbell's book was the first one dealing with this topic that I practiced a lot out of . . . about 20 years ago. Great book as well.
 
#26
John, it may be the cold medication, but I have to ask: why Eb minor (instead of major) with C major in the C7#9 sound? I know the Gb in the Eb minor would be equivalent to #11 in that chord; is that the standard extension in a #9 chord as you play it?
 
#27
There are four possible combinations of altered 5ths and 9ths:

#9 #5 (C triad, Ab triad)

#9 b5 (or #11) (C triad, Eb min triad)

b9 b5 (or #11) (C triad, Gb triad)

b9 #5 (or b13) (C triad, Dbmin triad)

Those are just the basic 4 if you are altering both the 9th and the 5th. As you point out, you can also just play an Eb triad on top to get the C7#9 without the #11 (Gb) in there. If you are "alternating triad pairs" then the note G is played with both triads. In a way, it is easier to alternate Ebmin and C triad, because there are no common notes. And if you are playing over a C7#9 chord, it is accepted practice that you could also alter the 5th or 13th of the #9 chord.

If you think of a half-step/whole-step diminished scale starting on C (C,Db,Eb,E,Gb,G,A,Bb,C), there are 4 major triads in that scale: C, Eb, Gb, A. I often use those triads to outline the upper extensions of an altered chord: I see or hear C7b9(13) and I play an A triad, which comes out of the diminished scale and contains the b9, 3rd, and 13 of the C chord.

If you think of a diminished whole-tone scale (and altered scale) starting on C (C, Db,Eb,E,Gb,Ab,Bb,C), there are Dbmin, Ebmin, Gb, and Ab triads in that scale.

So, the short answer to your question, "is that the standard extension in a #9 chord as you play it?" is: No, sometimes I would just play the notes of an Eb major triad--but it is easier to play "alternating triad pairs" with the Ebmin triad because there are no common tones.
 
#30
Thanks Scott -- triad pairs, as I mention above, are just more harmonic and melodic grist for the mill. They can be used musically, or not. There are a lot of great players out there making music who never have thought about triad pairs . . . or any scale or arpeggio . . . but they still manage to make great music.

Like you, I also enjoy exploring the theory behind different sounds. I've practiced triad pairs a lot—to the point that the technique and sound is very comfortable for me.
 
#32
Since triad pairs are just a bunch of intervals, any kind of ear training exercise where you sing and then play would be good. It's interval training. It's good to play a root, then hear the next note in your head, then sing it, then place your fingers where that note is supposed to be (where you think it is supposed to be) and play the note. I like to have students play the root of a chord/scale, and then sing a particular note of the scale, then play the arpeggio up or down from that note.
 
#33
I'm already singing and identifying open position triads in all inversions (and getting ready to have my ass kicked by 4 parts); I'm just a proponent of having this stuff available as an aural response before it's a "response of technique" if you will and since some of the exercises look like they're kinda aimed at implying polytonality or upper structure (? I'm sure I have an imperfect understanding) I was wondering how you approached getting that in one's ear....
 
#34
If you are singing and playing all positions and inversions of triads, then this is just another way of thinking of and using that same material. If you take a Cmin triad and put a Bb major triad on top of it, you aren't implying polytonality—it's just the notes of of a Cmin11 arpeggio (broken down into two triads).

All of the examples that I listed above are just two triads, alternating using the next available inversion. It's like the 2nd A section of Miles's famous solo on So What—he plays around on Dmin, and then goes up and plays a C major triad at the high point of his phrase.

I think that the hands and ears develop at different rates. Sometimes I need to play something over and over slowly before I feel I can hear it in a musical context. Ed, I think that you put a lot of value on being able to respond aurally, and I would certainly agree with that. In my case, I force myself to play things in slow motion, while at the same time listening to and thinking about what I am playing. Sometimes the aural part develops faster for me, sometimes it is the technical ability.

To give you a couple of concrete examples of things I would suggest:
(Assuming a bassist can play all triad arps starting on any note of the triad/any inversion/almost anywhere on the bass)

CMaj#11
1. Play a C triad (C,E,G) then a D triad (D,F#,A)

2. Play a whole-note C, then a whole-note F#. Do this over and over. Also sing/play/sing/play. Now target the F# first. Play F# to C, F# to C.

3. Play a whole-note C, then a D triad starting on F#
(C_ _ _ _ F# A D _). Repeat / sing/play.sing/play.

4. Play two notes of a C triad, alternating with two notes of the D triad (slowly, in half-notes):
up: C, E, D, F#, E, G, F#,A, G, C, A, D
down: D, A, C, G, A, F#, G, E, F#, D, E, C

5. Play the C triad and D triad alternating, like in my post above.
CMaj7#11: C and D triads. up: C E G D F# A E G C F# A D G C E A D F# C E G
down: (high) G E C F# D A E G C D A F# C G E A F# D G E C

6. Play a slow latin groove on CMaj#11 with a typical bossa bass line. Every fourth measure, play a fill only using the notes of a D triad.

7. Play two measures slow bossa time on the CMaj#11. In measures 3 & 4, play a melody using notes from the C triad, alternating with notes from the D triad.

8. Pick a tune that uses a major chord or a major#11 chord for a couple of measures—like the 1st & 2nd ending of Alone Together (DMaj7#11). When you get to the 1st & 2nd ending of your solo, target the #11 each time. See if you can imply the DMaj7#11 in 'Alone Together' by playing an E triad. See if you can alternate the D triad and E triad on those measures.

It depends how fast you ear and your hands pick up on this. Maybe you can hear it before you can play it really well, or maybe you will be able to play the notes before you can really hear how you could use the sound. Of course, you probably can't hear the musical potential in this technique until you can technically play it somewhat , , ,

The exercises that I suggest above presuppose that a bassist can already outline the changes using triads and diatonic harmony. (i.e. Play a D major triad over a D major chord without much problem). Combining triads is just a different way of thinking about upper extensions.

I first became really attune to this way of thinking when I played bass with Red Mitchell playing piano for a two-week gig at the long-defunct Village West. Red showed me a lot of these things—especially his way of voicing altered chords—as triads on top of triads. He said he learned it from Dizzy.
 
#35
I guess by polytonality I meant dealing with the chord extensions as new harmony. Which I will eventually get to with Joe in ear training (singing 4 part chords with two tensions). My reluctance to get my hands ahead of my ears stems entirely from my lack of being able to make any kind of musical sense when I did that before. I spoke fluent gibberish for a very long time :)

Dan's (tenor player I work with) been doing some similar sorts of things, hopefully I can work on some of both of these without returning to my gibbery ways...
 
#37
Thanks very much for posting this, John - it's great stuff. These triad pairs help to inculcate the characteristic "color" of the various dominant types.

I see there's an open question as to how they might be used in an improvisation without sounding mechanical. That's an interesting question.

In my experience, organized melodic patterns of any kind have an aura of inevitability about them; once the player starts them, the listener becomes witness to an unfolding with an element of predicability. The triad pairs in your example are interesting to the ear and unusual enough to be surprising - but there is still the "inevitability" problem as the ear recognizes the environment.

Hopefully the student will have practiced these combinations so they really know the sonority of a particular kind of dominant on their instrument - so they will then have the tools to OPPOSE the underlying harmonic structure, then resolve to it.

We tend to think of the primary elements of a chord as being the triad, and extensions are somewhere out there along the way, at some distance. My experience has been suggesting to me that the extensions are primary elements - displacing their nearby, more "fundamental" neighbors. It's interesting to contemplate how we might express these sonorities with two or three notes...

And, when we come to that dominant with a sharp 11, while soloing, we can play the natural 11 - the "wrongest" possible note - and then resolve it to the "primary" sonority of the sharp 11.. This technique of using oppositional tones in melodic construction derives from classical theory about melodic construction, and has been put forth in the realm of Jazz pedagogy by the work of Mike Longo, in particular, whose exercises sound like what "the cats" actually play... I've become a big fan of his work. It's the antithesis of the scale - and pattern- based pedagogy that has become all too familiar to us.

So - getting out the metronome now to work on my triad pairs!

Best
Jon
 
#38
JonBurr said:
We tend to think of the primary elements of a chord as being the triad, and extensions are somewhere out there along the way, at some distance. My experience has been suggesting to me that the extensions are primary elements - displacing their nearby, more "fundamental" neighbors. It's interesting to contemplate how we might express these sonorities with two or three notes...
Click to expand...
Thanks, Jon.

I think you get to my core point here: By having these various triad pairs under the fingers, the upper extensions of a chord are primary elements of the sound . . . not some displaced notes that are outside of the main octave where the "fundamental" notes lie.

As to your comment about "how they might be used in an improvisation without sounding mechanical," I think that any scale, lick, pattern, arpeggio can either sound mechanical or musical, depending on how we play. I think some people see a topic like "triad pairs" and think "mechanical, nerdy, pattern-oriented." Major scales can sound pretty mechanical if they are not used musically. The same goes for triad pairs--they can be used musically, (or not).

BTW, be sure and check out Jon Burr's youtube channel for some excellent bass playing!
 
#40
chop_1992 said:
Major scales can sound pretty mechanical if they are not used musically. The same goes for triad pairs--they can be used musically, (or not).
Click to expand...

Although I am not yet ready in my development to chew off the Triad Pair lesson (thank you for taking the time John), my teacher demonstrated how simply running through some basic eight note chord tone permutations around the cycle of fifths can become the antithesis of "mechanical".

His statement was something to the effect of playing it with his own personal "blues". His character and personality was the dominant function in the exercise.

I presume "owning it", as he did in his demonstration to me, is part of the process in being able to connect these types of things both technically and aurally.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back