Tube DI vs. Mic'd Cab: What Am I Missing?

[musicmansf]

I'm usually posting in other parts of TB, but I thought this would be the best place to ask:

Why does my Demeter Tube DI box sound thin and peak-y compared to a simple Sennheiser dynamic mic on a low volume cab?

Granted, I'm at the *very* beginning of an engineer's understanding, but to my ear, it's actively worse to include the DI (I also played around with some Compression and EQ plugins, but I'm also not using a ProTools-level DAW).

Signal path:

Stingray (picked) -> Broughton RFE (to mimic a Wal filter-based pick attack) -> Demeter DI. The dirt and rest of effects come after this and go into my amp, so the DI is getting clean with some EQ shaping before hitting the interface.

The downstream amp is also Demeter, which gets rave responses from sound guys for the on-board DI (basically the same topography of the direct box, just without EQ options).

I know producers say they take both DI and cab tracks for mixing, but it seems like the cab has way more weight and character

 

[silky smoove]

Take one, the other, or both. Use what works, ditch what doesn’t. It’s really that simple. At the most base level, your speaker cabinet rolls off most of the extreme highs and some
of the upper midrange, and some bottom end as well. This is generally favorable, but can sometimes lack clarity in a dense mix which is where a DI track can be a nice tool to utilize rather than heavy-handed EQ. Be sure and spend time understanding the phase relationship between tracks when using multiple instances of the same source simultaneously.

 

[Bonafide]

Step one, listen to experience about fundamentals.

Solid guidance often gets drowned out by the din of peripheral blather. Like you said, you are * very new* - Keep a focus on the fundamentals.

Get the EQ/Filter out of the DI path. The DI path can be affected/shaped in post if need be. EQ introduces unnecessary phase or resonance. Your DI is a fundamental.

Everyone works differently. Today - The majority of engineers I know do not use micd cabs at all. DI only or preamp/DI. A legitimate percentage capture both and then choose accordingly. Some add cab IRs in post. It is 100% scenario dependent, personal preference and choice. This goes for Grammy winning to home studio.

You don't want weight and character, you want a recording of weight and character.
That big energy has to be able to fit / translated properly in the mix. Often, the DI is the fundamental that provides a core to build your micd tone around and it is not going to sound the same isolated.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

With the Broughton into the DI you're missing what the cab does to your sound. Your bass sounds too sterile.

 

[tothemax]

From most of what I've read and tested myself is to do both, grab a DI track and a mic'd track. Gives you options for your recording. The DAW probably doesn't matter, it's the quality of the recording (track) that is critical. I use Cakewalk which is a free DAW. I use Audio Reference SM57 knock off's to record from my amp (my Ampeg BA210 has a built in XLR DI). The AR SM57 clone is a $35 mic and records quite well. Getting solid base tracks to work with is your target, and may take some playing around. Good luck!

This video may be helpful...

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[chadhargis]

With a DI you're missing all the sounds an open mic picks up. All the drums, the vocals, the noise in the room, the footsteps of people walking across stage, sneezes, coughs, etc.

You don't lose the coloration of the cabinet if you get a quality preamp that offers either IR cab sims or has a comprehensive EQ to roll off the frequencies like a cab would.

 

[FullumMusic]

In theory the DI recording is just the sound of your bass raw. (In this case it’s the sound of your bass raw + the DI tube.)

The sound of the mic’d cab is the sound of your bass + your FX chain + the amp pre section + the power amp + the cabinet + the speaker + the mic + the mic placement + a little it of the room + the mic pre.

Having never used your DI, I can’t say 100% why it sounds thin and peaky. Could be the way your bass sounds and the DI is working properly. Could be an issue with the tube or the DI. I couldn’t say.

If the DI channel chain is just Bass - DI - Interface Input (which it should be), and if nothing is wrong with the DI, try putting some tone shaping plugins on the channel inserts, not the aux sends (or whatever your DAW is calling it these days) and see if after a bit of EQ, compression, and whatever else is useful, see if the DI recordings sound better.

Of course, if something is wrong with the DI, then obviously that’s what needs to be fixed. Also, idiot-check that you have the proper outputs from the DI going to the channel in and your FX/Amp. We all make bonehead mistakes sometimes and plug things into the wrong places.

 

[alotabass]

Not all DIs are the same. Back in the day I used both a DI and a mic on the cab. The DI sounded thin and weak back then. However over the last 12 years DI's have gotten so good that I don't feel the need for cabs. On this track my bass is 100% direct and I do not miss a mic on my cab at all.

 

[jdjk7]

I'm usually posting in other parts of TB, but I thought this would be the best place to ask:

Why does my Demeter Tube DI box sound thin and peak-y compared to a simple Sennheiser dynamic mic on a low volume cab?

Granted, I'm at the *very* beginning of an engineer's understanding, but to my ear, it's actively worse to include the DI (I also played around with some Compression and EQ plugins, but I'm also not using a ProTools-level DAW).

Signal path:

Stingray (picked) -> Broughton RFE (to mimic a Wal filter-based pick attack) -> Demeter DI. The dirt and rest of effects come after this and go into my amp, so the DI is getting clean with some EQ shaping before hitting the interface.

The downstream amp is also Demeter, which gets rave responses from sound guys for the on-board DI (basically the same topography of the direct box, just without EQ options).

I know producers say they take both DI and cab tracks for mixing, but it seems like the cab has way more weight and character

If I had to guess, your signal includes a lot of high end content that the cabinet and mic are filtering out. When you adjust either to be the same volume, the DI will sound thinner. DIs almost always sound better with some kind of cabinet emulation going on, in order to tighten up and mellow the sound, which is how I use mine...

I use a DI cab sim pedal which just includes simple filters for taking out high end+low end and adjusting the mid content.

This type of setup has an advantage over a mic and cab in that A) you aren't depending upon the physical system of the cabinet and mic, and any issues with tolerance in the setup, and B) you can adjust the characteristics in the filtering quite easily. This could be done by adjusting the mic relative to the cab, but you have to be a fairly experienced sound engineer to really get a sense of how to do that. Much simpler to twist a knob until you like the sound.

 

[JazznFunk]

A few things could be happening.... Your bass is EQ'ed at the preamp stage to be bright with some midrange content missing, which the DI will communicate very clearly. Without any sort of compression involved, and especially with a pick, 'peaks' are going to be a lot more noticeable. Your amp is likely 'smoothing out' some of those upper end artifacts and perhaps adding some midrange heft back in.... then there's also the EQ curve of the mic to consider.

A Stingray going through a quality tube DI should not sound 'thin and peaky' as a general rule, but 'Rays tend to be bright.

A final thing to consider is phase issues.... it's possible the DI is out of phase with the mic signal and causing something to be thinned out as a result.

Try eliminating the Broughton RFE and just going straight in to the DI with the bass preamp 'flat' - eliminate extraneous things and just pare it down to the bass, DI, and amp and start investigating again from there. EQ the amp to sound the way you want it, grab that tone, and then you'll also have the direct flat EQ to mess with in post.

 

[darwin-bass]

Bypass the RFE and record the bass through the DI. Does it still sound thin and peaky? A Stingray bass? How do you have your tone controls set?

 

[pbass2]

Lots of good advice. First thing as Bonafide stated above is take the effects off the DI signal path and go from there. Typically (though you can do whatever you want of course), the DI track of a bass is tracked totally clean (maybe very slight EQ or compression going into the board/interface but you don't want to box yourself in--that's best saved for the mix stage). That's your foundation for the bass sound in the mix. Then the amp track is where you would use effects, and you blend the two together. That's certainly what you're hearing on most recordings, if an amp is used at all - these days more and more often folks (including major label pro producers and engineers) track a DI bass and use plug-ins for effects and amp sound. Not nearly as fun, but a heckuva lot easier and waaaay more flexible. Re-amping the tracked DI'd bass is another great technique and gives you the option to play with different amps on your already tracked bass. After all, it is cool to know there's an actual mic'd cab in the bass sound in the final product, though with the quality of plug-ins these days I'd wager most people (pros included) couldn't tell in a mix what you used - amp or plug-in - unless it's an extremely in-your-face element in the mix.

 

[Mike Marshall]

I'm usually posting in other parts of TB, but I thought this would be the best place to ask:

Why does my Demeter Tube DI box sound thin and peak-y compared to a simple Sennheiser dynamic mic on a low volume cab?

Granted, I'm at the *very* beginning of an engineer's understanding, but to my ear, it's actively worse to include the DI (I also played around with some Compression and EQ plugins, but I'm also not using a ProTools-level DAW).

Signal path:

Stingray (picked) -> Broughton RFE (to mimic a Wal filter-based pick attack) -> Demeter DI. The dirt and rest of effects come after this and go into my amp, so the DI is getting clean with some EQ shaping before hitting the interface.

The downstream amp is also Demeter, which gets rave responses from sound guys for the on-board DI (basically the same topography of the direct box, just without EQ options).

I know producers say they take both DI and cab tracks for mixing, but it seems like the cab has way more weight and character

I also use a Demeter DI and mic a small GK MBE combo. I do not use any effects. The people are suggesting removing effects. I believe what they are saying. Start with the minimal, every thing you hook up will color your tone.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

A DI'd bass shouldn't sound thin&peaky.

However...

Certain effects, particularly dirt, may sound very thin and nasty through a DI because the DI will not roll off highs the way a speaker does. The solution to this is to either roll off highs using an eq OR use a speaker sim on the DI signal OR use a clean DI signal and combine it with a dirty amp/cab signal.

Be aware that even a clean DI signal can make the overall tone extremely weak/hollow/thin when combined with a mic'ed cab if the DI and amp signals are out of phase. If you combine mic'ed amp+DI, make sure you know how to deal with phase issues.

But a clean DI signal soloed should definitely not be thin&peaky unless the DI box (or other parts of the signal chain) is either faulty or used incorrectly.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

DI stands for direct injection / direct input / direct insert, and it is for converting a high-impedance unbalanced signal into a low impedance balanced signal, so it can be plugged directly into a mixing board's microphone channel. It's not for coloring the sound really. There are DI units that have a preamp and/or amp simulation, but the OP's DI is not one of them. Some people think a straight DI will change their tone, but that's not true unless that's a DI w/ extra controls like the SansAmp BDDI, etc.

 

[Killing Floor]

Preference.
I'd use DI from a preamp box, a dry out, from an amp output or even direct to a board for certain bass tracks. But I would never ever direct out a guitar, never. And maybe that is what you're finding (less the guitar part). A speaker moving air sounds different to your ears than the signal processed electronically that is engineered to replicate a speaker moving air. Some of that ambient product gets lost in my opinion. Depending on the type of bass tone you are seeking it may be as simple as that, better for your preference.

There's no best. But a sim is not a "real".

 

[NKBassman]

Why does my Demeter Tube DI box sound thin and peak-y compared to a simple Sennheiser dynamic mic on a low volume cab?

The DI is going to put out a very good representation of whatever you're putting in. A cabinet and dynamic mic combo will naturally roll off a lot of the extreme top end that a DI will have no trouble reproducing. If the DI tone isn't to your liking, then you have two options: Adjust the signal hitting the DI in until it sounds right, or EQ the DI signal after its recorded.

Furthermore, your entire signal chain after the DI, including any distortion pedals, amp gain stages, speaker, and dynamic microphone all add compression on the peaks to some degree. Depending on how much distortion you're using, and whatever else is in your pedal chain, that signal hitting the amp/speaker could be very compressed.

Signal path:

Stingray (picked) -> Broughton RFE (to mimic a Wal filter-based pick attack) -> Demeter DI. The dirt and rest of effects come after this and go into my amp, so the DI is getting clean with some EQ shaping before hitting the interface. The downstream amp is also Demeter, which gets rave responses from sound guys for the on-board DI (basically the same topography of the direct box, just without EQ options).

I know producers say they take both DI and cab tracks for mixing, but it seems like the cab has way more weight and character

Why does the cabinet have more weight and character? Because you're adding in a bunch of distortion and presumably EQ after the DI signal. Given your description of your signal chain, there shouldn't be any surprise that the two signals sound significantly different.

Another thing you need to check whenever you're combining two signals is out-of-phase cancellations. Put the two signals side by side in your DAW. record a track of just a few muted clicks and then stop. Now zoom all the way in until you can see the individual squiggles of any one particular peak. You'll probably see that the mic signal is actually coming in slightly after the DI signal. That's because the sound takes time to travel through the air to reach the mic before it gets to your computer. So the DI signal is actually slightly before the mic signal, which may lead to some phasing issues when combined, making the final combined sound thin or scooped sounding. You can fix this by applying an equal time delay to the DI signal, or literally just dragging the recorded wave forms around in your DAW until they line up.

Now you also need to check if the two waveforms are peaking in the same direction. If one is going up while the other one is going down, then the signals are 180 degrees out of phase and are actively cancelling each other out when combined. If that's the case, then you need to flip the phase on the mic signal in your DAW.

 

[brianrost]

IStingray (picked) -> Broughton RFE (to mimic a Wal filter-based pick attack) -> Demeter DI. The dirt and rest of effects come after this and go into my amp, so the DI is getting clean with some EQ shaping before hitting the interface.

You are going about this wrong. "The dirt and rest of effects" plus how you have the Demeter amp set up (got the low boost on?) and further coloration from the mike is going to sound totally different than the clean signal. You are not even trying to get a clean sound out of that amp.

So why does the DI sound thin compared to the highly colored miked amp? Either because how you have the Broughton box set up or because you have pushed up the bass and low mids in the amp chain.

Decide what it is you want...to record a flat, clean signal or not.

P.S. I've mainly recorded through DIs since the 1980s because it provides the most flexibility at mixdown time. If an amp sound is called for, the DI track can always be reamped.

 

[PotsdamBass8]

It’s really surprising how much just the amp and speaker shape the sound. When I had a helix, with headphones, it was crazy to hear some of the effect paths with and without the speaker emulation on. Distortion sounds awful. A RAT pedal into an SVT without the cab (virtual) and then with the cab are so vastly different. Your signal path, picked stingray into a pick attack filter and then DI, I expect it would be exactly as you described it.

A good experiment would be to throw some different IRs (basically EQs that replicate the sound of a miced cab) on your DI sound and compare.

 

[logdrum]

Is this Demeter the one with the Bi-Amp option and you are connected to the Hi output of the Bi-Amp output section? Probably explains the thin and peaky sound