tube vs solid state direct boxes

[DavidEdenAria]

I'm using the stock Sovtek 6N1P. I tried a little tube rolling, but decided I liked its character stock the best.

Curious what tubes you tried?

What tubes are used in commercial DI for bass?

As an aside, I've horded tubes for 25+ years.

One thing I have noticed with new manufactured gear in general, is companies want to only use tubes that are still in production.

I have a love of octal tubes over say the 12a#7 types.

The octals are fatter and warmer as a rule...6sc7, 6sj7 etc.

I have thought about building a DI with some out of production (and possibly rare) tubes.

Most of these circuits are not complicated or expensive to build.

 

[JimmyM]

Most tube DI's use 12ax7's or 12au7's by far. A small handful of others use 6SL7's or 6SN7's. The REDDI is the only one I know that uses a 6N1P. It's not a direct replacement for the 12ax7 by any means, but it's sort of like a Russian version of a 12ax7 that Peter Montessi favored out of the tubes he tried while designing the REDDI.

The only tube rolling I've done is this NOS Russian 6N1P I found shortly after I got my REDDI a year and a half ago. It's a great sounding tube, but it added close to 4 db of gain and was a little heavy in the low mids and midbass for my tastes, and the Sovtek gives it a more flat EQ. The NOS tube is great for some things, but the Sovtek gives it a more universal appeal.

 

[Joe Louvar]

Actually I haven't had as much time to get on, but it's been good to get on here a little and have some trivial fun to take my mind off things for a few minutes at a time. Thanks for the nice words on Facabook, Joe.

Yeah, I'd probably need to do the same and you're very welcome Jimmy, you and your family are in my prayers bro.

 

[smcbass]

Here's what I've gathered from this and another thread on tube DIs with low plate voltages:

(I think JimmyM was a big participant in the other thread.)

I. A tube DI worth buying should:
1) be using at least 120VAC. Anything less than that means that the tube is nothing more than a "glory tube."
2) have a "big" transformer like the REDDI.

II. The Demeter tube DI's transformer is not big enough.

Tentative Conclusion: The only tube DIs worth the money are the REDDI, the Eclair Evil Twin, maybe a couple of others.

Comments?

 

[JimmyM]

Well I certainly wouldn't disagree that 120v and a big output tranny makes the difference in the REDDI. But honestly, having heard comparisons of DI's like the Brick and the Evil Twin vs the REDDI, I think there's some more to it, because they don't wow me like the REDDI.

 

[bongomania]

The size of the transformer is NOT an indicator of tone quality. Many of the most revered studio preamps, that use transformers, have ones that are fairly small. It's all about the specific performance characteristics of the specific xformer; you could easily find hundreds of different "large" xformers that sound nothing like you want.

The REDDI contains a large xformer, and it sounds fantastic. But the size of the xformer is about as relevant as the red paint job.

 

[bongomania]

Regarding voltage and "glory tubes", this is also not as simple as it appears. For example, some circuits are designed to take a low voltage and an extremely high current, and the current is used to drive the tube at high voltage. There are also "glory" (tonally useless) tubes found in some amps/preamps that do run on a wall AC cord.

For another thing, high voltage is mainly for high headroom; but some people expect a tube to give a fuzzy coloration to their tone, which is achieved more with LOW headroom. So for some people their personal ideal tube tone might actually be found in a lower-voltage design.

The voltage and transformer questions are valid technical questions, but the answers are far too complicated. Best to just listen and go by your own subjective tastes.

 

[JimmyM]

The size of the transformer is NOT an indicator of tone quality. Many of the most revered studio preamps, that use transformers, have ones that are fairly small. It's all about the specific performance characteristics of the specific xformer; you could easily find hundreds of different "large" xformers that sound nothing like you want.

The REDDI contains a large xformer, and it sounds fantastic. But the size of the xformer is about as relevant as the red paint job.

Don't know if I agree entirely. Like I hear a lot of DI's with one of those little Jensen OT's, and none of them sound quite as good and tubey, at least to me. The Kern IP-777, however, does sound pretty good despite it having smaller iron transformers, although I wouldn't say it's quite in that league of tubiness. So while I would agree with you that the size of the OT isn't everything, it does apparently count for something.

And that red paint job is totally what makes the REDDI sound like it does

 

[smcbass]

Shouldn't we be able to exclude the "glory tube" DIs fairly easily? I don't have the time to spend listening to various tube DIs, nor do I have ready access to many of them. I use a TubeWorks 4001, and it is the only tube DI I have ever actually seen other than a Presonus TubePre, which was classified as a "glory tube" DI in the thread about those DIs.

I wonder if my TubeWorks DI is also a "glory tube" DI. It runs off of an external power supply which delivers 30 volts and 600ma to the jack which connects it to the DI.

I live in a fairly large metropolitan area (>500K), but I don't know of a music store that has any tube DIs in stock. I certainly can't afford to spend big bucks on experimenting with tube DIs. I am trying to figure out if there is a used tube DI out there for less than $400.00 that is worth the money, or whether I should just buy a Countryman Type 85 or 10 or a Radial J48, JDI, or JDV.

The Retrospec Juice Box doesn't have a transformer at all. Link Removed Where does that leave us?

A used Demeter tube DI can be purchased for less than $400, but at least one person who posted in this thread thinks that the transformer is too small. It has the advantage of still being in production. The Aguilar DB900 and the Groove Tubes DIs are no longer in production, so getting them repaired might be problematic.

Used Eclair Evil Twins and REDDIs command prices well in excess of $400.00. That puts them well over my budget.

 

[bongomania]

Don't know if I agree entirely. Like I hear a lot of DI's with one of those little Jensen OT's, and none of them sound quite as good and tubey, at least to me. The Kern IP-777, however, does sound pretty good despite it having smaller iron transformers, although I wouldn't say it's quite in that league of tubiness. So while I would agree with you that the size of the OT isn't everything, it does apparently count for something.

And that red paint job is totally what makes the REDDI sound like it does

Come on. You've heard a lot of one make and model of xformer that was designed to be nearly transparent in tone, and therefore all similar-sized xformers must sound like that?

 

[JimmyM]

Come on. You've heard a lot of one make and model of xformer that was designed to be nearly transparent in tone, and therefore all similar-sized xformers must sound like that?

Of course not. I'm saying that size does count for something when it comes to real tube sound, though. But you can use different metals and change the sound of otherwise similar transformers, of course. Give me a little credit here.

 

[JimmyM]

Shouldn't we be able to exclude the "glory tube" DIs fairly easily? I don't have the time to spend listening to various tube DIs, nor do I have ready access to many of them. I use a TubeWorks 4001, and it is the only tube DI I have ever actually seen other than a Presonus TubePre, which was classified as a "glory tube" DI in the thread about those DIs.

I wonder if my TubeWorks DI is also a "glory tube" DI. It runs off of an external power supply which delivers 30 volts and 600ma to the jack which connects it to the DI.

Don't know, but those old TubeWorks DI's were pretty respected in their day.

I live in a fairly large metropolitan area (>500K), but I don't know of a music store that has any tube DIs in stock. I certainly can't afford to spend big bucks on experimenting with tube DIs. I am trying to figure out if there is a used tube DI out there for less than $400.00 that is worth the money, or whether I should just buy a Countryman Type 85 or 10 or a Radial J48, JDI, or JDV.

Depends on how important it is to you. I'd be tempted to stick with the TubeWorks if I were you.

The Retrospec Juice Box doesn't have a transformer at all. Link Removed Where does that leave us?

Don't know. Not familiar. But it's very well liked and respected with some putting it right up there with the REDDI and Evil Twin.

A used Demeter tube DI can be purchased for less than $400, but at least one person who posted in this thread thinks that the transformer is too small. It has the advantage of still being in production. The Aguilar DB900 and the Groove Tubes DIs are no longer in production, so getting them repaired might be problematic.

Used Eclair Evil Twins and REDDIs command prices well in excess of $400.00. That puts them well over my budget.

The Demeter sounds good but it just doesn't quite hit me as tubey.

 

[smcbass]

JimmyM,

Thanks for your reply above. Lee Sklar used a TubeWorks 4001 at one time, so that's a pretty good reason to go with it. I'm inclined to just stick with the TubeWorks DI just because I've already spent the money on it, and it sounds OK. It's still connected to the sound board, so the sound guy can make me sound better or worse, even if I have a REDDI or Evil Twin.

 

[JeffLieby]

FWIW, I played my first service at church Wednesday night with the REDDI. I am so thankful that I listened to the majority of REDDI fans on TB. I don't know how to describe it, it just sounds right. Beautiful clarity, with a certian harmonic content and a weight to the notes that I have never experienced through any other DI.

We have a night of worship tomorrow night (an extended set) and I am really looking forward to playing through the REDDI.

Money well spent, IMO.

 

[Joe Louvar]

Here's what I've gathered from this and another thread on tube DIs with low plate voltages:

I. A tube DI worth buying should:
1) be using at least 120VAC. Anything less than that means that the tube is nothing more than a "glory tube."
2) have a "big" transformer like the REDDI.

+1, Yep.

Anything less is called a "starved plate power supply" and tubes using such supplies do nothing more than add noise, and anyone who says heavy duty transformers don't matter just haven't been around electronic for very long.

 

[f.c.geil]

To my ears, REDDI is the best. However, at $700, it may not be worth the difference. The best-sounding SS DI I've heard is the Countryman Type 85. Again, to my ear, the differences are subtle, but readily apparent, and very worthwhile.

 

[bongomania]

anyone who says heavy duty transformers don't matter just haven't been around electronic for very long.

Like Neve, API, Telefunken, those fly-by-night operations are just bogus with their small output transformers.

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[Joe Louvar]

Like Neve, API, Telefunken, those fly-by-night operations are just bogus with their small output transformers.

nice pretty pictures, lol.

That's not what I'm saying - there are lots of great preamp/DIs, channel strips, etc, but some are built differently and therefore sound different - like the REDDI and the transformer used plays a big "part".

 

[hennessybass]

If I were in your situation - that is, playing with no amp, direct to the board, I think I would be able to justify a really nice DI. I would go with the REDDI.

But I am a gigging guy, and I like my amps, so my money goes more to amps and live gear. I have been very happy with my Countryman Type85. Fantastic DI, and if I want that "tube thing" then I can run the countryman speaker level out of the back of one of my tube amps.

Countryman or Radial JDI / JDV are great, top-of-the-line pro-level boxes. You can not go wrong. Lot's of good choices out there. Remember: passive box for active bass, active box for passive bass.

Want to hear some sounds... check out [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[bkbirge]

I'm currently playing through a TubeWorks 4001 tube direct box, but it's grossly underpowered (30 volts, 600 milliamps).

Curious what you mean by underpowered. Are you trying to use the DI as a preamp? That's not what a DI is for, though many of the newere DI's *also* have nice gain pushing them into preamp territory. The REDDI is a DI *and* a preamp for example. The Whirlwind Director is purely a DI.

All a DI does is transform high impedance unbalanced signals into low impedance balanced signals suitable for matching to a mic pre on a mixing board.