Very true! 300 "tube watts" means absolutly squat if that is the power level at 20% distortion. A solid state 300 watt amp rated at less than 1% distortion will "melt" the "tube"amp off the stage.
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Tube Watts to Solid State Watts
- Thread starter iriegnome
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Very true! 300 "tube watts" means absolutly squat if that is the power level at 20% distortion. A solid state 300 watt amp rated at less than 1% distortion will "melt" the "tube"amp off the stage.
Closer..?
Hi iriegnome.
You've been a member of TalkBass for nearly eight years and yet you're asking the amp question equivalent of 'fingers or picks'?
Alrighty then. For the benefit of newcomers...
'Tube watts' and 'solid state watts' are the same. Watts are watts.
It's just that when a tube amp is cranked to the edge of clipping, tube compression and a gradual rise in (EDIT: predominantly) even order harmonic distortion make it seem louder than a transistor amp of the same rating.
Conversely, *most transistor amps don't compress the audio they put out and, when driven into clipping, produce (EDIT: emphasise) odd order harmonics which sound harsh.
Tube compression makes a tube amp sound louder than a transistor amp in a similar manner to how the compressed audio in TV commercials sounds louder than the sound track of a televised movie.
*An exception might be the output stage of tc electronic's new RH450 whose 'Active Power Management' tc claims mimics the response of a tube power amp when pushed to the brink of clipping.
Very true! 300 "tube watts" means absolutly squat if that is the power level at 20% distortion. A solid state 300 watt amp rated at less than 1% distortion will "melt" the "tube"amp off the stage.
Probably not, because you can keep turning the tube amp up. The solid state amp turned up past that point sounds like ass most of the time.
'loud' and 'volume' are not interchangeable concepts.
Much of the 'volume' that gets produced has more to do with the speaker cabinet than the amp.
While the soft clipping of Tubes lend themselves to the perceived volume, the reality of the matter remains the same:
A watt is a watt.
While one might use a 100W V4B and get it loud and cream/crunch the preamp and really play it nicely, and the same wattage through an SS pre/power section will clip harshly, the limitations are on the speaker cabinet.
Much past 100W (each), the driver itself begins to lose efficiency, and pushing a clipped signal is undesirable, so a tube amp may seem to have the edge but only from a personal taste point of view (and that of being nice to your gear)
To be realistic here, comparing guitar and bass is unfair, as most bass players desire 'headroom' - more power over and above the average volume - to be able to play quietly and play louder. This is NOT about working out the tubes and is more about pushing power. This is where 300+Watt amps come into play and the main reason Solid State came into being...40 lbs of GK is often beefier and louder than 80 lbs of Ampeg played through the same cabinet.
While an electric guitar is nearly all mids, a Bass guitar has a much wider frequency spectrum, which takes MUCH more power on the bass/low mids size to move through a bigger speaker, and to move that bigger speaker.
Also, the human ear hears the frequencies an electric guitar puts out louder than lower frequencies, so not only does it take less power to push out the same volume but the same volume sounds louder.
Do we still have to have this discussion about 'tube watts' being 'louder'?
It's far more than just tube vs. SS and it feels like we're beating a dead horse here.
Much of the 'volume' that gets produced has more to do with the speaker cabinet than the amp.
While the soft clipping of Tubes lend themselves to the perceived volume, the reality of the matter remains the same:
A watt is a watt.
While one might use a 100W V4B and get it loud and cream/crunch the preamp and really play it nicely, and the same wattage through an SS pre/power section will clip harshly, the limitations are on the speaker cabinet.
Much past 100W (each), the driver itself begins to lose efficiency, and pushing a clipped signal is undesirable, so a tube amp may seem to have the edge but only from a personal taste point of view (and that of being nice to your gear)
To be realistic here, comparing guitar and bass is unfair, as most bass players desire 'headroom' - more power over and above the average volume - to be able to play quietly and play louder. This is NOT about working out the tubes and is more about pushing power. This is where 300+Watt amps come into play and the main reason Solid State came into being...40 lbs of GK is often beefier and louder than 80 lbs of Ampeg played through the same cabinet.
While an electric guitar is nearly all mids, a Bass guitar has a much wider frequency spectrum, which takes MUCH more power on the bass/low mids size to move through a bigger speaker, and to move that bigger speaker.
Also, the human ear hears the frequencies an electric guitar puts out louder than lower frequencies, so not only does it take less power to push out the same volume but the same volume sounds louder.
Do we still have to have this discussion about 'tube watts' being 'louder'?
It's far more than just tube vs. SS and it feels like we're beating a dead horse here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeballkid
.... but heres the deal
300 tube watts will melt your balls. while 600 SS watts will just tickle em real well. Tubes will put some ass behind it.....!
Well, what do you say after that one! lol
500 D class watts will GROW your balls.
Originally Posted by eyeballkid
.... but heres the deal
300 tube watts will melt your balls. while 600 SS watts will just tickle em real well. Tubes will put some ass behind it.....!
Well, what do you say after that one! lol
500 D class watts will GROW your balls.
- Feb 16, 2008
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yes, IMO this subject has been discussed here to ad nauseum. regarding comparing the two types (tube vs SS) in a "real world" setting using the same cabinet. the two amps i'm comparing are my Ampeg SVT and my GK 1001RBII, both running at four ohms thru 2-15" JBL K140's, or my SVT 810 cab. with both amps cranked, thru either cabinet, they are just about the same , but i'd give the 'percieved' volume/loudness edge to my SVT's (300 watts) over my GK (700 watts). and this is running both them just about full out. however, at that volume, both of them are louder than i'd be able to use at any gig that i've played lately. to me, its not really about watts, but perception. i have always thought that a good rule of thumb is that tube watts to SS watts equates, in 'percieved power' to approx 2 1/2 or 3 to 1, whereas a 100 watt tube head 'feels' like a 250-300 watt solid state one. but i do agree that one scope or wattage meter, a watt is a watt, regardless of it being tube or solid state.
just my opinion............
just my opinion............
My 800rb and Fusion 550 don't?
And yes distortion always "sounds" louder than an undistorted signal. A tube amp with output rated at 20% distortion BTW is at the end of its headroom.
Lets sticky another pointless discussion that really has no end to the uninformed.
No offense to those of you who realize the concept of perceived loudness.
To the others, no offense but see how far the perceived loudness will actually carry
- Feb 16, 2008
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I basically agree, but there are a few exceptions.
my GK 1001RBII sounds great cranked.
+1!
Rickett Customs
Commercial User
- Feb 16, 2008
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At the end of its headroom, and at the start of the kinds of tones I use.
There are exceptions to almost every rule, of course.
It's the topology that matters. Class-ab, whether SS or Tube is are both when driven into overdrive they give the same emphasis on odd harmonics. Same emphasis for even harmonics.
If it was class-a - it'd be a different story. But there are many tube amps - most all class-ab to have enough power to be useful.
And many many many more SS amps mostly class-ab and lately class-d now.
But either could have class-a pre-amps, or amps that act like class-a.
There is plenty of techs on this board. They must have good test equipment. All they need to is measure it and post the measurements of as many types of amplifiers as possible. Cheap and free spectrum and distortion analyzers are available if anybody wants to try it with a PC.
But since I can get very high powered SS amps - I don't need to drive them into high distortion. I can add controlled amounts of distortion going into the amplifier - it will just amplify it.
In fact, even some class-A output stages could be lumped into this. The key is whether it's a push-pull output stage or not. Push-pull stages inherently suppress the even order harmonics. And yes, a push-pull output stage can indeed be biased fully class-A.
To make a long story short, a variety of factors including but not necessarily limited to overall amount of global negative feedback, output transformer saturation and output transformer frequency limitations, tend to make tube amps overdrive more gracefully than solid-state ones do. That is to say that you can run a typical tube amp further into clipping before it actually sounds distorted* than you can with a typical solid-state one. That intermediate stage between clean and audibly distorted is that 'compression' that tube amp lovers love tube amps for.
*Distorted in the sense of "overdriven" sounding as opposed to the strict definition of the word.
The mods maybe waiting to see if anything new or useful comes from this? Instead of just closing and sending a message to READ THE STICKIES. I know they put the stickies up to try and help all, too many just jump and post?
It's not that there is no truth, it's just that there are many different methods used to come up with an amps power rating. Unless there is a industry wide method in place that everyone must adhere to, then it makes it hard for the consumer to know if they are comparing apples to apples.
That said, the industry has seen such a jump in the level of power available to the consumer, that I really don't think many players are feeling cheated by the volume to dollar ratio these days.
Are you kidding? I would have killed to have the choices we have now back then. And back then there were a pretty good amount of choices I thought.
I like my VT Bass too.
Which is why I can now comfortably regard the FET as being my 'new tube'--some 33 years after sceptically exploring my first FET-based, "sounds like a tube amp" rig (a Yamaha B100 combo) and finding it to be nice, but wanting for a gutsy tone.
Just add a judicious - and reliable
- amount of modern, light-weight wattage, coneage & cabbage - either MI amplification or pro audio - and presto! 
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