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Tube watts

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#44
johnk_10 said:
TC Electronics (maker of SS amps) explains it this way:



here's the whole article:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Click to expand...


It's good to see marketing propaganda used to sell completely SS heads as an argument for tubes being better.

All marketing material needs to be look at with a grain a salt.

Peavey has a blind test where people can't hear a difference between amps:

Invalid Link Removed

"To illustrate the above point, several years’ back,
we set up a “double blind listening test” at a studio
rental outfit in Nashville. We invited a half dozen
of Nashville’s finest studio “pickers” to come and
listen to various amplifiers. They were told that the
purpose of the test was “to pick out the transistor
amp.” There were five amps involved in the test
and while these “golden ears” never decided which
amp they liked best, their conclusion was 100% on
which one of the amplifiers they thought was the
solid-state (TransTube) amp… As it turns out, EVERY
ONE OF THEM picked the SAME amp being
the solid-state amp when in fact, their choice was
a tube type “boutique amplifier.” Simply put, every
one of these “golden ear studio pickers” did NOT
identify the TransTube amp as being solid-state,
but in fact, picked an amp that sold for more than
five times what our TransTube Bandit sold for as the
“solid-state” amp"


I believe Peavey.
 
#45
seamonkey said:
Maybe for lucky you, but other industries have found a vast difference and incentive to move to SS for better reliability.
Click to expand...

I'd hardly call 15 years of diagnosing an repairing all sorts of amplifiers and finding no reliability differences between the two types "lucky for me." There are lots of other engineers and techs whose experiences mirror mine. Other industries? I'm sure that the cooler operating temperatures, lower rail voltage requirements, no filament circuits and less requirements for transformer coupling probably had something to do with it. And in a lot of this industry those things certainly have made the move to SS completely sensible. Believe me, I'm all for digital mixers and class-D SMPS power amps in pro audio. But so far, I haven't found a solid-state bass amp that responds like my old SVT does. Until I do, I'll continue to lug it around.

Zero feedback amplifiers are parlor tricks. There have been zero feeback SS amps created - but they're not practical.
Click to expand...

Not with typical high-beta BJTs, I'll wager. FETs yes. At any rate, that's not my point. The fact is that tubes typically require less feedback than transistors for stability and for reasonable linearity. My assertion is that tubes are inherently more linear than transistors and it's largely true. I'm not one of those anti-feedback guys, BTW, in fact I think it's incredibly useful.

On the other hand, You would not be able to build a modern Op-amp with tube components.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
#46
seamonkey said:
It's good to see marketing propaganda used to sell completely SS heads as an argument for tubes being better.

All marketing material needs to be look at with a grain a salt.

Peavey has a blind test where people can't hear a difference between amps:

Invalid Link Removed

"To illustrate the above point, several years’ back,
we set up a “double blind listening test” at a studio
rental outfit in Nashville. We invited a half dozen
of Nashville’s finest studio “pickers” to come and
listen to various amplifiers. They were told that the
purpose of the test was “to pick out the transistor
amp.” There were five amps involved in the test
and while these “golden ears” never decided which
amp they liked best, their conclusion was 100% on
which one of the amplifiers they thought was the
solid-state (TransTube) amp… As it turns out, EVERY
ONE OF THEM picked the SAME amp being
the solid-state amp when in fact, their choice was
a tube type “boutique amplifier.” Simply put, every
one of these “golden ear studio pickers” did NOT
identify the TransTube amp as being solid-state,
but in fact, picked an amp that sold for more than
five times what our TransTube Bandit sold for as the
“solid-state” amp"


I believe Peavey.
Click to expand...

This is just an instance of the very interesting general truth that if you performed double blind tests on things relating from amps to red wine, you get incredibly unreliable results in experts being able discriminate 'cheap' from 'expensive' products.

That said, I still own a DB 750.

: )
 
#48
seamonkey said:
I believe Peavey.
Click to expand...

that's nice........


IMO, Peavey's are okay, but when I spoke with Hartley Peavey in the mid 70's and asked him how the music store that i worked for could sell one of his amps when comparing it to an SVT or a Sunn 2000S, his reply, with a smile, was "Sell them for what they are". i not only found it humorous (his intention) but also truthful. :smug:
 
#55
mongo2 said:
That has more to do with perception than watts.
Click to expand...

Well the article is describing compression more than anything else which is a real effect. But it's right, the intentional reduction in dynamic range of compression does increase the perceived volume of the signal.

In fact, analog noise reduction systems utilize compression to circumvent reduced dynamic range capabilities of recording methods like analogue magnetic tape recording. Dolby B and C and the DBX NR systems all do this by compressing the signal as it's recorded and then re-expand it during playback....

LS
 
#57
I love tube amps. I play them. I've only ever owned them.

But that's because I am willing to sacrifice portability for what MAKES ME HAPPY as a player. I FEEL that I like the tone I get from tube amps more, so I'm fine with moving them around.

For others, portability may be a key issue. No question SS amps rule that category. Even if they too feel that they may appreciate tube amps for their sound, it's just not practical lugging about 60 lb. beasts on the subway.

Yet another group may say that they prefer the SOUND of SS amps for their goals.

Tube amps are "louder" maybe b/c our ears want them to be louder, or b/c they are a "complex signal". To me, SS has always been minimalist mentality, not in quality per se, but in everything from the size of the package to the signal delivered: the goal is simply get the message from the pickups to amp as cleanly as possible; this results in some people (LIKE ME) who think it's sounds "sterile" or "harsh." Again, for others, it's not sterility but clarity.

To each his own. :bassist:
 
#58
Mark Reccord said:
My assertion is that tubes are inherently more linear than transistors and it's largely true.
Click to expand...

Actually they're not, particularly as they approach saturation - In fact that's the behavior tube amps exploit to get their particular sound.

Even in hi-fi, the non-linearity of tubes vs SS devices is pretty well known.

Tho if tubes hadn't gone obsolete for everything except very high power applications (like multi KW or MW RF transmitters), who knows how they would have eventually developed....

LS
 
#60
To each his own indeed! I personally don't care what makes my tone, I just know the tone I like. My tone happens to come from the Markbass solid state stuff. I've owned a Mesa 400+ and old bassman 100, and neither one provided the tone I prefer.

I also like seeing both sides of the discussion. So long as people can remain civilized and reasonable objective, it can really be a good topic for new players or for people just looking to understand more about their gear. We have a pretty incredible group of talent and experience to draw from. So on that note, thanks to all of you that have shared your experience. I've learned a couple new things today!
 
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