Tuning machine winding question

[DoctorZee]

On every bass I’ve ever owned, I’ve been fine cutting the string two pegs’ length long, and winding that length. But I recently picked up a Vintera 60s Jazz Bass (with “vintage style reverse tuners”) and this winding length gives me far fewer winds around the post than any other bass. Why is this? Even if gear ratios are different, it should still take the same amount of winds to get the string to tension, right?

 

[RSBBass]

It has nothing to do with the gear ratio. The pegs are probably a bigger diameter and need more string to go around them. Or, the pegs are closer together and "two pegs" is a shorter distance on the bass.

 

[DoctorZee]

It has nothing to do with the gear ratio. The pegs are probably a bigger diameter and need more string to go around them. Or, the pegs are closer together and "two pegs" is a shorter distance on the bass.

Makes total sense. I knew there was a simple explanation I was overlooking. Just surprised me because it’s a big difference from any other bass I’ve owned. Thank you!

 

[JKos]

I measure the diameter of the peg, multiply by Pi, then multiply by the number of winds I want to have on the peg. Add a bit depending on the type of peg (through hole, add just a little; hole down the center of the peg, add a little more). I measure that distance past the peg on the string.

On a given bass, I only need to do this once and then have a visual cue (e.g., two posts past) for that bass.

 

[sissy kathy]

I measure the diameter of the peg, multiply by Pi, then multiply by the number of winds I want to have on the peg. Add a bit depending on the type of peg (through hole, add just a little; hole down the center of the peg, add a little more). I measure that distance past the peg on the string.

On a given bass, I only need to do this once and then have a visual cue (e.g., two posts past) for that bass.

On my Fenders, Squires and clones I use the length from the nut to the post + the length of the headstock.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

To me, the rule is that you want 3 full wraps on the E, 4 wraps on the A and D, and 5 wraps on the G. The length beyond the post, where I bend the L or Z in the string, is based on that.

The wraps around the post are important, because they make the string squeeze the post, increasing the friction around the post. This reduces the load on the sharp bend where the string core enters the hole or slot. That sharp bend is the weakest spot on the string, because it's been bent sharply.

 

[bootstrap]

But can you get all of the tuning keys to face perfectly forward while the bass is in tune?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

But can you get all of the tuning keys to face perfectly forward while the bass is in tune?

With a few hours of modeling in Mechanical Desktop software, it probably could be done.......But not by me!

 

[Turnaround]

But can you get all of the tuning keys to face perfectly forward while the bass is in tune?

I have done that occasionally for the fun of getting it right. You can get pretty close if you are replacing with the same brand/gauge of string. Start by estimating how much more/less string length you need. I do this by putting a mark on the string at the centre line of the post. Then I back off the tuner until it's facing the way I want, and make another mark at the same spot relative to the post. The distance between the two marks is how much I need to shorten the new string compared to the old. I remove the string, straighten out the windings (except for the L bend), and lay it beside the new string, aligning the ball ends. I then put the L bend in the new string behind the bend of the old string by the amount between the two markers. Cut the new string past the bend, install, tune up, set the witness points, retune and see how close I came to the tuner being in the desired position. It's always fun to see how close I can get to having the tuner ears really flat.

 

[bootstrap]

Brilliant, thanks. I knew someone out there had to have some way of going about this. Not surprised it's you!

 

[JRA]

or, don't cut the strings in the first place!

- one advantage is that you can use the strings on another instrument (or again) without hassles.
- the fear of "strings slipping" (if not cut) is overblown. maybe it happened once when the string wasn't installed correctly.
- more players have miscalculated their string cuts than have experienced 'slippage'.
- most people cut their strings because someone else said it was de rigueur, or worse: that it was "necessary."

FWIW: i haven't cut strings for ~4 decades...because: why? cutting strings = requires more time, requires tools, and for some: requires some luck!

anyone can install the full length of most strings without cutting them and do it neatly and prevent slippage!

 

[Turnaround]

or, don't cut the strings in the first place!

- one advantage is that you can use the strings on another instrument (or again) without hassles.
- the fear of "strings slipping" (if not cut) is overblown. maybe it happened once when the string wasn't installed correctly.
- more players have miscalculated their string cuts than have experienced 'slippage'.
- most people cut their strings because someone else said it was de rigueur, or worse: that it was "necessary."

FWIW: i haven't cut strings for ~4 decades...because: why? cutting strings = requires more time, requires tools, and for some: requires some luck!

anyone can install the full length of most strings without cutting them and do it neatly and prevent slippage!
View attachment 5396941

There is a balance between too many wraps and too few. Too few can lead to tuning stability problems because of the string slipping on the post. And too many wraps can lead to tuning stability problems too, because the more string there is on the post, the more string there is to stretch. And the tension on the last wrap around the post will be a tighter post fit than the first wind because the string doesn't come to operating tension until the last wrap is around the post. Over time the tension will equalize through all of the wraps, increasing the tension on the first wraps while lessening it on the last. And that causes the string to go flat. Most of the professional techs will tell you that 3 wraps is just about ideal.

 

[JRA]

There is a balance between too many wraps and too few. Too few can lead to tuning stability problems because of the string slipping on the post. And too many wraps can lead to tuning stability problems too, because the more string there is on the post, the more string there is to stretch. And the tension on the last wrap around the post will be a tighter post fit than the first wind because the string doesn't come to operating tension until the last wrap is around the post. Over time the tension will equalize through all of the wraps, increasing the tension on the first wraps while lessening it on the last. And that causes the string to go flat. Most of the professional techs will tell you that 3 wraps is just about ideal.

i play fretless axes that i carry around in gig bags = i'm tuning my instruments regularly, and in some cases, frequently (as well as truss adjustments on some of them, sometimes). i'm gonna believe that i do enough 'tuning futzing' that i'm catching all of the potential issues before they present. also, my initial winding of the ends is a pretty good one, i don't recall any slippage at critical times (knock on wood! ). but bottom line: my many years of experience with this method trumps "most of the professional techs" who would share an opinion with me on this specific subject....present company excluded: i have always valued your take on all EB subjects, i have learned so much from your issue-oriented threads, and i have appreciated your POV and research on EB matters! you're one of the reasons i value TB as much as i do.

however, i can imagine the worst-case scenario for me: a string slips and i'm now out of tune. my solution: retune!

 

[TeeSee]

I remember the days of when you had about 2 or 3 inches of string sticking out of the post. Didn't even know there was a hole in the bottom of the peg in those days. Untidy and unprofessional little oiks we was back then but we still got 'em dancin.

 

[Turnaround]

i play fretless axes that i carry around in gig bags = i'm tuning my instruments regularly, and in some cases, frequently (as well as truss adjustments on some of them, sometimes). i'm gonna believe that i do enough 'tuning futzing' that i'm catching all of the potential issues before they present. also, my initial winding of the ends is a pretty good one, i don't recall any slippage at critical times (knock on wood! ). but bottom line: my many years of experience with this method trumps "most of the professional techs" who would share an opinion with me on this specific subject....present company excluded: i have always valued your take on all EB subjects, i have learned so much from your issue-oriented threads, and i have appreciated your POV and research on EB matters! you're one of the reasons i value TB as much as i do.

however, i can imagine the worst-case scenario for me: a string slips and i'm now out of tune. my solution: retune!

Sounds like that works for you. But that doesn't trump what most experienced techs recommend.

Thank you for your appreciation of what I contribute to TalkBass. Your acknowledgement means a lot to me.

 

[JRA]

...that doesn't trump what most experienced techs recommend.

only for me... PSA = kids: i do what i do by living dangerously --- don't do what i do...don't try this at home!

Thank you for your appreciation of what I contribute to TalkBass.

it's easy to do, you're revered and respected --- all of us who care about playing and understanding our instrument appreciate your experience/expertise. thanks for all your contributions to that experience, it's essential stuff!