Mine both have tuners but they insist on tuning to each other because you know, tuners are inaccurate. Unlike their ears? Not.
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Tuning using harmonics?
- Thread starter mcblahflooper94
- Start date
I like strobe tuners bc they track the low B string on bass quickly and reliably.....
....plus I can quickly pass it to the guitarist and PROVE just how out of tune tune he really is (or has poor intonation). :bat:
....plus I can quickly pass it to the guitarist and PROVE just how out of tune tune he really is (or has poor intonation). :bat:
Actually, I think we agree about the main point.Now I guess.
This is not how you tune a guitar with harmonics. You tune the first 4 strings, then the high E to the low E then the B based on the high E, using only 5th and 7th fret harmonics.
The ratio to use is not between open strings and harmonics, it is between harmonics themselves that are a straight 4th apart. Do your calculation again using a 1.5 ratio and you will reach goal frequencies, on a bass at least.
<snip>
My example was really to illustrate why Just Intonation is a problem. No matter how you slice it, Just Intonation ends up with slight variations, and thus the need for some kind of tempered tuning to allow key changes. There are many ways to address this problem, and that's why there are so many different attempts over history to find a system for tempered tuning. All of them involve compromise. The only reason to point to a quality chromatic tuner as the target for pitch is that there is an convention of using Equal Temperament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_temperament
I am not sure if it's necessary for people to truly understand the need for tempered tuning, and the problem that it solves. But for those times that it does come up, in cases like this, it might be.
FWIW, I did use the ratio you suggested. 3:2 is 1.5. If you just use that to tune a 4 string bass, the variation from equal temperament will be small but present nonetheless. The pitches won't match the piano, for example.
I also agree that as for actually tuning an instrument, this is probably minor compared to other factors like variability in the quality of tuners and how people use them. Heck, variability in how people press the frets probably accounts for much more variation in pitch than anything.
In the end, I think it's a useful part of musical history to understand why Tempered Tunings exist. I'm not sure it's critical that everyone gets it, however.
Peace
This right here. I've seen two tuners have more variation than results from tuning by harmonics. If you can hear the difference enough to want to correct it, more power to you. If not, I wouldn't worry about it too much at least in a live setting. In a recording session my degree of perfectionism in this area is determined by the producer/budget/purpose/available time.
For those learning to play: tuning by harmonics is a valuable skill to have. It helps build your understanding of the fretboard by learning what harmonics are where, and it's useful if there isn't a tuner available or if you need to tune an errant string very quickly, like in the middle of a song.
EEEK! Harmonics tuning!
Ever listened to old pop songs from the 60's and noticed the guitars getting flatter and flatter as they go up the fretboard? A result of "harmonic tuning."
Then again, the late Danny Gatton used to tune to the buzz of the fluorescent lights wherever he was playing... (Work it out as frequency; 60Hz hum is close to a B in pitch.)
One day I noticed that classical guitarists always used open strings when tuning, which caused me to rethink using harmonics, as I did for ages.
Agree, however, that a cheap/inaccurate tuner is even worse...
All in all, it's one more reason I love fretless- if the interval offends the ear, just squidge the requisite finger sharpie or flattus. If you play any fretted instrument, especially in high=gain situations, you'll eventually notice that many harmonics (especially the ones that squeal forth unexpectedly) are wildly "out of tune" with your fretted notes. In fact, many of us wind up sub- or un-consciously micro-bending strings to alleviate the micro-out-of-tunenesses which Equal Temp. requires.
Ever listened to old pop songs from the 60's and noticed the guitars getting flatter and flatter as they go up the fretboard? A result of "harmonic tuning."
Then again, the late Danny Gatton used to tune to the buzz of the fluorescent lights wherever he was playing... (Work it out as frequency; 60Hz hum is close to a B in pitch.)
One day I noticed that classical guitarists always used open strings when tuning, which caused me to rethink using harmonics, as I did for ages.
Agree, however, that a cheap/inaccurate tuner is even worse...
All in all, it's one more reason I love fretless- if the interval offends the ear, just squidge the requisite finger sharpie or flattus. If you play any fretted instrument, especially in high=gain situations, you'll eventually notice that many harmonics (especially the ones that squeal forth unexpectedly) are wildly "out of tune" with your fretted notes. In fact, many of us wind up sub- or un-consciously micro-bending strings to alleviate the micro-out-of-tunenesses which Equal Temp. requires.
I use harmonics to get close and then fine tune comparing fretted notes to open strings, then double check by playing different 3- or 4-note chords, mostly root-5th-9th and major & minor 7th chords. Open voicings with low E or A as root and other chord tones played above 12th fret are also a good way to check if the intonation needs to be adjusted.
I read on TB somewhere about tuning to a flat9 chord. Tried with the keys player and it was much easier to hear if you were close but not yet 100% spot on. The 17th harmonic stops beating when you're spot on pitch.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)#editor/4
-> click on Harmonics and Tuning.
This table is more in depth.
In Key of C you'd play C-E-G-Bb-Db. They are similar to an E° (Full Diminished) chord with a C bass.
The E° notes make up the 5th-6th-7th-17th harmonics.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)#editor/4
-> click on Harmonics and Tuning.
This table is more in depth.
In Key of C you'd play C-E-G-Bb-Db. They are similar to an E° (Full Diminished) chord with a C bass.
The E° notes make up the 5th-6th-7th-17th harmonics.
partly because there are people who like to poke fun at him, it doesn't mean much.
When he's wrong he's annoying, but when he's right he can be even more annoying.
But it's a matter of taste--and by discussing him we might increase his hits, so I'll stop now.
INTP 5w4 LII.
I agree, David. Back before electronic tuners, sure, people had to tune audibly, on stage.
But now? It just seems amateurish to me to do so.
But now? It just seems amateurish to me to do so.
Well, I wouldn't say amateurish, but i would say its not necessary.
I do it all the time when I'm with a student cuz we're tuning to each other and it doesn't have to be a perfect 440A. Everyone uses digital tuners these days, most ppl have them on their pedal board. Its all good!! How is the state of Satori these days???? Samadhi Trio was my first solo CD!!! Booya!!!
www.basslessonslosangeles.com
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Tuning is a part of playing music.
Don't you love the big racket before a concert when the orchestra tunes?
Don't you love the big racket before a concert when the orchestra tunes?
In that context, yeah. But with a rock band that's using electric instruments, I don't. Especially the high strings of the guitar.
Harmonic tuning is important to use, just another way to work on your ears.
And well ... classical musician do it all the time, but sure the setting is quite different from what you'll do on bass ...
And well ... classical musician do it all the time, but sure the setting is quite different from what you'll do on bass ...
this was more a question of badly build intonate instrument ... so the problem is more around the bridge than tuning by harmonics ...
Classical string players (violinists, violists and cellists anyway) usually tune with open strings, with the intention of a perfect fifth between strings. Because of the range and projection of those instruments, that system works for them.
Classical bassists do things differently. In the situation of "take an A from the oboe and tune from there" especially with a whole bass section and often cello section, the residual noise of an audience who have not decided to be completely silent yet etc. tuning with open strings would be next to impossible. Perfect fourths would also result in your open strings being tuned differently from the upper strings, which becomes particularly noticeable in chamber music. That is one of the many benefits of 5ths tuning, but that's another can of worms.
Keep in mind that unless there is a piano present, equal temperament is also not the goal of most classical music. The majority of the instruments used in an orchestra (keyboard instruments like pianos and organs, and pitched percussion being the exceptions) are all instruments where intonation is adjusted on every single note. That means your open lowest string should be in tune, but from there everything can and should adjust to the music being played.
Do I enjoy the entertainment value of "Dr. Groovy" videos? Absolutely. Does he have some pretty good points? Absolutely. Is he always 100% correct about everything? Probably not. He does a pretty great job of combating some of the brand-loyalty and cork-sniffing that our culture thrives on though. Whether or not you chose to believe you can hear a difference between your instrument tuned by harmonics or a strobe tuner, or that Ebony vs. Maple vs. Rosewood vs. anything else fretboards sound different... Most people have made up their mind on those debates before they've watched any of his videos or come here to talk about them anyway.
Can anyone tell me the model of his Korg tuner he uses? How accurate is it?
I haven't watched his other videos, but does he mention we use a Tempered Scale? Or how Equal Temp is purely mathematical and it can be many cents out even to itself? Or mentions stretch tuning or string inharmonicity anywhere? Serious oversights.
Paul Guy has the BEST info on tuning guitars.
It covers relevant theory too but he keeps it simple and to the point. He also disses the 5th-7th fret tuning method.
http://www.guyguitars.com/eng/handbook/Tuning/tuning.html
I haven't watched his other videos, but does he mention we use a Tempered Scale? Or how Equal Temp is purely mathematical and it can be many cents out even to itself? Or mentions stretch tuning or string inharmonicity anywhere? Serious oversights.
Paul Guy has the BEST info on tuning guitars.
It covers relevant theory too but he keeps it simple and to the point. He also disses the 5th-7th fret tuning method.
http://www.guyguitars.com/eng/handbook/Tuning/tuning.html
